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Work arounds for L4 mission runners.
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Lugalzagezi666
#41 - 2012-12-12 00:41:54 UTC
Two characters can take double amount of missions from agents regardless of soloing or running them together.
You can always decline missions and if you are not doing that to avoid bad (too far or antifaction for example) missions, you are not even close to being efficient.
You still have to fit proper tank becase rats will switch agro now and after the agro bug will be fixed it will be good old t2 all the way for any mission (not to mention adding more tracking enhancers, tracking computers or heatsinks/gyros etc. after 3rd-4th doesnt really make difference).

Travelling time per mission is in fact DOUBLED and it is very significant especially considering alot of missions offer much better rewards when blitzed. Kill speed is not effectively doubled because of overkill damage (when we are talking about properly skilled and fitted faction/t2 bs), synchronization and playstyle of players (running with someone with missile ship is nightmare, closely followed by drone ship).

If its fun is very individual, but it certainly isnt efficient.
nAirasSoyr Ro
General System Support
#42 - 2012-12-12 00:45:03 UTC  |  Edited by: nAirasSoyr Ro
Don't know what happened, but post got lost.

No further comments. Probably dropping out for a month or so until CCP figures out what it wants to do and gets enough patches installed to make things playable again.

Happy Holidays to everyone with holidays in the near future; everyone else, have a good time, too.
Rain6635
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#43 - 2012-12-12 00:48:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6635
was there a comment with that, or are you agreeing with everything I said :-)

I'm guessing there was supposed to be a comment

ah.

I tried FRAPS to show my gang running worlds collide (room two) in 3 minutes, but fraps captures only one display at a time.

Rainf1337 on Twitch
Apocryphal Noise
Close Encounters of the EVE Kind
Goonswarm Federation
#44 - 2012-12-12 01:16:01 UTC
It's a nice thought but level 4 missions simply don't pay enough to make group missioning viable. Especially if you add in dps dead-weight like logi's. I think at this point a lot of people mission to pay for more interesting activities and not for the actual gameplay, as sad as that may be.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#45 - 2012-12-12 01:58:36 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:

Travelling time per mission is in fact DOUBLED


How is it doubled when two people can warp at the same time, use an acceleration gate at the same time and move together?

Considering the room has to also split the E-War effects, you're going to have shorter periods where you're affected, and can kill the E-War NPCs sooner. Because your DPS has doubled, NPC peak DPS is going to drop faster, you don't need your tank to be sustained for as long a period as you do solo.

Like I said, YMMV with regards to pilot skill and teamwork, but I can't see how travelling time is doubled. It's not like only one ship can move at once.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Rain6635
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#46 - 2012-12-12 02:04:00 UTC
it's not always about the isk, though. for pilots with expensive taste, no, level 4's aren't rewarding enough to play them.

for pilots who already have ISK, it's for enjoyment

there's a point where a pilot has enough ISK, and assets, and sp that the most valuable thing they have is their pilot.

for new pilots who don't have access to lvl 4's on their own, they're exhilerating.

for the salvager who is used to scanning down scraps it's a dream

with 4 to 6 missions' worth of LP, a player has some options in the LP store. that's profitable.

if they're willing to take the faction standing hits, the faction missions yield 50-75 mil in tags. each. with Jita being in caldari space, taking faction missions and not leaving caldari space becomes a good idea. when I used to farm faction missions, my noctis would end the day with a bil in cargo

maybe have a faction mission alt to farm with and maintain crappy faction standings. that's not a bad idea, actually.

I have five accounts and pay annually. that $600 USD/year keeps me out of a LOT of trouble, and from spending money on other things. like gas, movies, eating out, spending money because I'm bored--

some people play to buy plex, but I think that sounds more like a job. and ISK is not real.

//what are people doing that costs them so much ISK?

Rainf1337 on Twitch
Sammybear
Pyke Syndicate
Solyaris Chtonium
#47 - 2012-12-12 02:06:49 UTC
Rain6635 wrote:

//what are people doing that costs them so much ISK?


losing lots of ships post patch? lol
Ealric Sorden
BVS FabriTech
#48 - 2012-12-12 02:08:09 UTC
Rain6635 wrote:

//what are people doing that costs them so much ISK?

Exotic dancers.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#49 - 2012-12-12 02:12:48 UTC
Rain6635 wrote:

//what are people doing that costs them so much ISK?


Funding accounts, pvp alts, fanfest ticket and further pimping out my mission ships.

Also having a top line set of implants isn't cheap.


A lot of people spend their first few billion on their mission ship, reinvesting in it's potential and increasing the damage output, the tank, and other sections of the utility.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Risien Drogonne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2012-12-12 02:14:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Risien Drogonne
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Level 4s don't pay enough to make me want to do them with other people.


Double the people, double the speed. You can also fit a lighter tank, thus allowing for more firepower.

You do actually make more isk/hr, also you have less chance of declining missions, and can run multiple missions from one agent at once.

It's pretty easy to see you've either never done it, or you were terrible at running them solo and thus have no idea. Duoing with your own alt doesn't count. There are no logistical details that way, and you get all the money.
Rain6635
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#51 - 2012-12-12 02:28:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6635
lol.

just be in a gang. it's a solution for people who can't solo lvl 4's

the only source of enjoyment left for me is helping people on mission ((I never enjoyed PVP))

I took a russian player on dread pirate scarlet (easy-ish mission), and I had to chat using google translate. he was curious what a battleship gang with orca support (and sequential names) was doing in the system, so I said let's go

when the mission was done, the player had 15mil in bounty and asked if I wanted my share of the loot. I declined, being pretty sure it was crap loot aside from the +3 implant which I already have 7 of, but i was curious how much loot they thought I would want a cut of--sure enough, it was 20mil in crap plus the implant.

maybe they were bad at math and didn't realize each of my ships received the same bounty amount he did, but I wanted to give him ALL the bounty for the reminder not to take level 4's for granted.

it stopped being about ISK a long time ago(for me). i mean, I have 2 bil in the orca to refit with (in space!), along with half a bil in T2 frigates and cruisers in the maintenance bay(which, by the way, assault frigs can run level 4's). when the orca and noctis pilots are done training perfect logi, i'll field my own vanguard fleets.

they'll train into archons after that, and I'll run level 5's and make those stupid easy. (and join whatever alliance is in cyno range to not be a constant gank target)

missioning is where it's at. and when I'm bored and doing nothing I can just undock and showboat with machariels.

just find a gang. i decided to be my own gang.

Rainf1337 on Twitch
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#52 - 2012-12-12 02:47:36 UTC
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Level 4s don't pay enough to make me want to do them with other people.


Double the people, double the speed. You can also fit a lighter tank, thus allowing for more firepower.

You do actually make more isk/hr, also you have less chance of declining missions, and can run multiple missions from one agent at once.

It's pretty easy to see you've either never done it, or you were terrible at running them solo and thus have no idea. Duoing with your own alt doesn't count. There are no logistical details that way, and you get all the money.


Or y'know, like I said YMMV, but if you actually have a valid argument and not just ignore the actual topic and go for the personal arguments then please present it.

Like I said earlier, setup matters. If you've two people just typing back and forwards a bit, one in a missile ship and the other with crummy gunnery skills then no, it won't be fast enough to warrent the split in isk. Two well fit Gunships on voice chatting away and relaying what group/ship type they're shooting? Having two missions to run before docking back up and only having to click through one agent? Having the e-war ships locked and popped faster because their effects are spread thin across two people?

Yeah, that? That's making it more than 2x faster than running solo. The best arguments I've heard so far are "Travel time is doubled" which still makes no sense and "Your bounties are halved" yes, but so's your mission time.

Seriously, if you've actually got anything that justifies why two high SP, well fit gunships running missions together is ISK/hr slower than a single gunship doing the same with half the firepower, and 100% of the e-war aggression then please mention it.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Rain6635
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2012-12-12 02:56:28 UTC
I agree that two ships is the sweet spot for level 4's.

particularly due to EWAR--npc jams are ridiculous and if you run into two jamming battleships (Pith Eliminators is one that comes to mind)... you're permajammed.

Rainf1337 on Twitch
Sammybear
Pyke Syndicate
Solyaris Chtonium
#54 - 2012-12-12 03:27:06 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:

Seriously, if you've actually got anything that justifies why two high SP, well fit gunships running missions together is ISK/hr slower than a single gunship doing the same with half the firepower, and 100% of the e-war aggression then please mention it.


Accidental targeting of ships that are close to dead is one way it would be slower, not by a lot, but still slower. Other varying reason could also slow down a pair in the long run, as in it might be quicker to bang out 2-4 missions, but over the long haul you will usually have to deal with various IRL issues, but that is more of a case by case type issue.

And the ewar is really where "YMMV", as it depends on who you are fighting, if it is vs angels, then the ewar argument is null and void, but vs other factions, I can see the bonus of other people in fleet.

Overall fleeting up offers more safety and fun for some, but saying it beats soloing for isk/hr is a bit of a stretch. I would agree that it could/does match the speed of soloing in most cases, but overall I cannot agree that it beats soloing (other game makers have seen this and that is why they give bonuses to exp and money gain when more people are involved, because it is next to impossible in the long run to double the pace by doubling the people - give all the random factors involved with people working together)
Rain6635
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2012-12-12 03:33:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6635
would anyone mind some eye candy

15 sentry, dual XL ASB rattlesnake option:

http://i.imgur.com/yucBE.jpg

there's an onyx in there, tanking with one L shield transfer from logi.

or was it 5 L shield drones from a rattlesnake, I don't remember

http://i.imgur.com/qu08N.jpg

hah i forgot to censor the overview names. oh well.

T2 cruisers... shield resist bonus, smaller sig, decent dps

I wish I had pictures of my triple harpy blaster gang running level 4's...
they permarun AB's and shield boosters and have about 1000dps between them

proof that you don't need battleships or even battlecruisers to do level 4's.

Rainf1337 on Twitch
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#56 - 2012-12-12 04:16:27 UTC
Nice to see some post talking about what can be done before any patchest come around.

One thing I've noticed in this thread is the lack of reward v.s. risk for L4's now.

I'm wondering if this is going to balance out due to people moving to other activities that don't bring isk into the game which in turn will increase the value of isk. I suspect this will make a small differance due to other things like ratting and incursions brining in isk.

The same could be said about LP. Since FW got big it's value has dropped a bit. Is the lack of L4 LP going to see some rebalancing on value or is it too little? Will even more people do FW if LP value gets pushed up due to this?


I'm still wondering if anyone has switched to scout incursions.
Many did VG's before the nerf but I've yet to see any love for the scouts.
Are they going to become something semi-regular?


Still looking for information on ECM and NOS helping with agro in L4's.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#57 - 2012-12-12 04:19:29 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Treat it like an incursion.


Does it pay like an Incursion? That's the real problem.

Risk vs Reward. Fine, I'm down with that, but CCP has jacked up the risk without increasing the rewards by a single ISK. We now face Incursion/WH level rat AI in missions now, and facing increased dangers, yet we're not making any more money from them than before. That's really getting the short end of the stick, wouldn't you say?

WH AI in WHs is fine because they're making WH level ISK from it.
Incursion level enemies is fine in Incursions because they're make Incursion level ISK from it.
Now we've got WH/Incursion level crap in L4 missions and the payout is no higher than it was before.

The reason WH people didn't care about losing drones to the WH AI is that they were making so much money that they didn't care about sacrificing three or four million ISK worth of drones every mission. But for a mission runner? That's half your income.

If I wanted to do Incursions I would. If I wanted to do WHs I would. I do not. I understood that by taking smaller risks that I wouldn't be making as much money and I was fine with that.

Apparently CCP felt differently and decided to close-off my little end of the sandbox from use.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Rain6635
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#58 - 2012-12-12 05:19:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6635
the AI is upgraded but the ships remain the same. they're rather weak. with 2 good pilots or 3 ok pilots the risk is 0

while lurking the forums, I ran a mission and paid for a +4 implant with the bounties... that's a super laid back way to make 30 mil

I guess the difference is, my pilots have core competency Elite, navigation Elite, shield tanking Elite, gunnery and missile control Elite...

lvl 4's can be so easy, nothing else is worth the concentration

here's a thought: if you're killing a room faster than a noctis can salvage it, you're doing alright.

Rainf1337 on Twitch
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#59 - 2012-12-12 08:27:35 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Treat it like an incursion.


Does it pay like an Incursion? That's the real problem.

Risk vs Reward. Fine, I'm down with that, but CCP has jacked up the risk without increasing the rewards by a single ISK. We now face Incursion/WH level rat AI in missions now, and facing increased dangers, yet we're not making any more money from them than before. That's really getting the short end of the stick, wouldn't you say?


Not really, it's soloable content that already paid well. The AI changes to their targeting algorithms is coming closer to justifying the isk value, than making it an underpaid job.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Rain6635
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#60 - 2012-12-12 08:38:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6635
can you imagine if more people worked that hard irl for plex?

mebbe... here kid, mow my lawn five times and i'll give you a plex

grinding for a 15 USD plex is lower-paid work than minimum wage

Rainf1337 on Twitch