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Why does nullsec care so much about what highsec is doing?

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E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#161 - 2012-12-11 22:13:04 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
There's only one way to grief in EVE, shoot a rookie.


Well that, like most absolutes, isn't entirely true is it?

Heck, you don't even have to be in game...

I'm pretty sure CCP considers greifing to be harrasmet of new players by shooting them or baiting them into getting shot.

There' nothing else, I can think of, that CCP will ban you for doing to another player. Short of verbal herassment or threatening them, and that's not "griefing".


My mentality is that of an adult. Not schoolyard bully or a nerd that was bullied in school. Killing miners in hi-sec is nothing more than griefing. The day I have to kill miners in in hi-sec to feed my eve ego will be my last day in eve. Killing miners is same as clubing baby seals on the beach...niether can fight back.
General Nusense
Doomheim
#162 - 2012-12-11 22:17:39 UTC
dont listen to anyone from CFC North or CFC South. They are 100 percent safer in the sea of null sec blue they created then in High Sec. That is the only reason they want to change High Sec.

Made a signature so I am taken seriously on the forums, since thats the only thing they are good for.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#163 - 2012-12-11 22:23:43 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:


Killing miners is same as clubing baby seals on the beach...niether can fight back.


Both provided a good source of money though which is why people did it. In both cases it was not griefing.
Aaden Dante
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#164 - 2012-12-11 22:26:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Aaden Dante wrote:
Now, tell me again how it's safe in high?


Park a badger on a busy gate in high sec and count how long it takes for someone to kill you. Then do the same on a busy 0.0 gate.

Report back with which is safer.


The quote in my post was about how ships blowing up are good in general. As a trader I heartily approve. I buy the salvage, I sell the hulls, fits and ammo. It's all good for me.

All I said was that more ships blow up in high as evidenced by the in game graphical representation of kills.

There isn't enough kills in null/wh's to support the high-sec industry which seems to be a general complaint in this thread.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#165 - 2012-12-11 22:30:02 UTC
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
Lastly and most importantly though, I have learned that this constant bickering between us serves only to distract our efforts from the real issues at hand.


What do you think are these real issues?

(Genuine question).

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#166 - 2012-12-11 22:30:13 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Aaden Dante wrote:


The quote in my post was about how ships blowing up are good in general. As a trader I heartily approve. I buy the salvage, I sell the hulls, fits and ammo. It's all good for me.

All I said was that more ships blow up in high as evidenced by the in game graphical representation of kills.

There isn't enough kills in null/wh's to support the high-sec industry which seems to be a general complaint in this thread.


Over the years far more ships have been blown up in 0.0 than in high sec according to CCPs numbers. The in game map statistic graphics can be a bit misleading especialy with the Red vs Blue war. So long as you dont do something stupid like try to fly 20 bilion isk worth of cargo AFK through Uedama the chances of being attacked in high sec is around the same as being struck by lightning.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#167 - 2012-12-11 22:37:31 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
so what was your council of stellar null grand poobahs doing for half a decade

I'm glad you asked!

CSM 1-4 were powerless talking shops without the infrastructure or drive to push for action, which mostly existed to add items to an ever-increasing backlog of issues that CCP then ignored. CCP decided to actually make use of the CSM during CSM5, which had a largely empire-based presense but nonetheless was heavily involved in discussions about the future of a 0.0 that few of them had any knowledge of. The 0.0 - dominated CSM6 came about as a response to this and the infamous CSM5 jump bridge nerf discussions.

Since CSM6 we've had no major new features thanks to the Incarna fallout and the 'thousand little things' expansions that followed, but we've seen hints that we'll see more substantial efforts towards fixing the big issues in the not-so-distant future.

Are you actually implying nothing good ever came from any CSM except for CSM 6??
Aaden Dante
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#168 - 2012-12-11 22:38:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Aaden Dante
baltec1 wrote:
Over the years far more ships have been blown up in 0.0 than in high sec according to CCPs numbers. The in game map statistic graphics can be a bit misleading especialy with the Red vs Blue war. So long as you dont do something stupid like try to fly 20 bilion isk worth of cargo AFK through Uedama the chances of being attacked in high sec is around the same as being struck by lightning.


Dotlan says differently. Dotlan 2012 summary

Edit: I'll grant you the use of the word, 'attack' as compared to mutual pvp. (RvB/wardecs,challenges etc)
Silath Slyver Silverpine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2012-12-11 22:47:19 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
Lastly and most importantly though, I have learned that this constant bickering between us serves only to distract our efforts from the real issues at hand.


What do you think are these real issues?

(Genuine question).


To be honest, I'm not entirely sure. I haven't experienced all that EVE has to offer so I can't really give an unbiased view; the issues I am aware of are mostly from reading others posts over the years.

If I had to say what the biggest issue is, it'd be CCP selectively ignoring issues they don't seem to want to here about; we hear a lot of talk about wanting feedback, but it seems like much of it is dismissed. Perhaps that's our fault as a player base, in the way we present the issues. I'm sensing (already!) a sort of return to the mentality and disconnect that led to monoclegate, but maybe I'm just paranoid.

Aside from that, people seem to agree that lvl 4 highsec missions are skewed (or were, prior to this patch. Now it's fubar'd in an entirely different way), tec moons profits seem to be another cause for concern and have been for a long time. People have been begging for a better way to construct and manage POS, and also for a revamp of drone mechanics and UI; both things that would benefit players of all areas. From some of the comments in this thread, it seems like null could use a boost to manufacturing capability, and this is something I'd like to see to give the market more diversity.
There's also WiS, a hotly debated issue. Many people would like to see it entirely scrapped, while many others would like to see it evolve into something useful, with mechanics that make it beneficial to EVE as a whole.
Mining in highsec is ridiculously profitable right now, but that's a cause of market factors, and I don't think punishing mining for the consequences of the market is in any way a wise idea. In fact, I don't think anything should be nerfed only because the market decided it was 'too profitable.'

There's certainly many more, and there's been a million threads brought up in the past proposing excellent and well supported fixes that CCP has chosen to patently ignore in favor of their own agenda (Whilemany of their recent iterations, balances, and updates have been nice, I think most of us can agree there's bigger issues to tackle than removal of the jukebox and revamping the inventory.)
EvEa Deva
Doomheim
#170 - 2012-12-11 22:58:20 UTC
Most people in Nullsec don't give 2 ***** whats going on in high, but if you come to the GD forums they seem to have this ongoing battle of words. A battle the forum Mods need to squash, but let it roll endlessly on and on and on.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#171 - 2012-12-11 23:27:30 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
so what was your council of stellar null grand poobahs doing for half a decade

I'm glad you asked!

CSM 1-4 were powerless talking shops without the infrastructure or drive to push for action, which mostly existed to add items to an ever-increasing backlog of issues that CCP then ignored. CCP decided to actually make use of the CSM during CSM5, which had a largely empire-based presense but nonetheless was heavily involved in discussions about the future of a 0.0 that few of them had any knowledge of. The 0.0 - dominated CSM6 came about as a response to this and the infamous CSM5 jump bridge nerf discussions.

Since CSM6 we've had no major new features thanks to the Incarna fallout and the 'thousand little things' expansions that followed, but we've seen hints that we'll see more substantial efforts towards fixing the big issues in the not-so-distant future.

Are you actually implying nothing good ever came from any CSM except for CSM 6??

Are you implying anything good came out of CSMs 1-5? Okay, the skill queue. Anything else at all?

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#172 - 2012-12-11 23:31:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:


I live in null as well, in the sea of blue. There is nothing to disprove. It is what it is. People that grief in hi-sec dont do it for profit, they try to make it less of a cost when they can. Some gank freighters that can yield profit. The truth is most null players that have been in null for a while have more money than they can spend. Some people are still in null trying to make a living not everyone is rich but to many have hundreds of trillions of isk. For these people it’s not about profit it about CONTROL. Control of the market or control of other players that’s what they seek and that’s why they come here and argue and fight and complain. Every time they make hi-sec safer they lose the ability to CONTROL.

They pretend to call it pvp or sandbox or various other things. In reality it’s the ability to impose control over the carebare they don’t want to lose. Just like the poster above and other like him/her.

Know what the biggest piece of bullshit here is?

You continually implying that hi sec gankers are Null sec players. As if getting ganked in high sec means you didn't get ganked by someone else who lives in high sec, or that they didn't come from low, or WH space.

PS: notice the guy used the word "greif" to say gank?
Says a lot about the guys mentality.

There's only one way to grief in EVE, shoot a rookie.


I never meant to say grief. I guess my brain called it for what it really is. The biggest piece of bull **** here is you. I struck
The nail on the head as well as a nerve. Goofs are all about control and manipulation.

Most "goofs" I know are about laughs.

It doesn't change the fact you're wrong. Just because someone ganks you doesn't make them a null sec player. You guys just like that excuse because it sounds better then crying about getting ganked by another high seccer; which is very likely to happen.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#173 - 2012-12-11 23:51:55 UTC
Nullsec in a nutshell

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#174 - 2012-12-11 23:57:37 UTC
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
Lastly and most importantly though, I have learned that this constant bickering between us serves only to distract our efforts from the real issues at hand.


What do you think are these real issues?

(Genuine question).


To be honest, I'm not entirely sure. I haven't experienced all that EVE has to offer so I can't really give an unbiased view; the issues I am aware of are mostly from reading others posts over the years.

If I had to say what the biggest issue is, it'd be CCP selectively ignoring issues they don't seem to want to here about; we hear a lot of talk about wanting feedback, but it seems like much of it is dismissed. Perhaps that's our fault as a player base, in the way we present the issues. I'm sensing (already!) a sort of return to the mentality and disconnect that led to monoclegate, but maybe I'm just paranoid.

Aside from that, people seem to agree that lvl 4 highsec missions are skewed (or were, prior to this patch. Now it's fubar'd in an entirely different way), tec moons profits seem to be another cause for concern and have been for a long time. People have been begging for a better way to construct and manage POS, and also for a revamp of drone mechanics and UI; both things that would benefit players of all areas. From some of the comments in this thread, it seems like null could use a boost to manufacturing capability, and this is something I'd like to see to give the market more diversity.
There's also WiS, a hotly debated issue. Many people would like to see it entirely scrapped, while many others would like to see it evolve into something useful, with mechanics that make it beneficial to EVE as a whole.
Mining in highsec is ridiculously profitable right now, but that's a cause of market factors, and I don't think punishing mining for the consequences of the market is in any way a wise idea. In fact, I don't think anything should be nerfed only because the market decided it was 'too profitable.'

There's certainly many more, and there's been a million threads brought up in the past proposing excellent and well supported fixes that CCP has chosen to patently ignore in favor of their own agenda (Whilemany of their recent iterations, balances, and updates have been nice, I think most of us can agree there's bigger issues to tackle than removal of the jukebox and revamping the inventory.)

To sum up, for various reasons CCP have historically been really terrible at promptly addressing issues within Eve, and have only been able to get away with this for because of not having any real similar competition. The restructuring from the end of last year and other work going on behind the scenes may be the first step towards fixing this, and hopefully we'll be seeing some more substantial work from next year.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#175 - 2012-12-11 23:59:18 UTC
Aaden Dante wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

The safer it is in high sec, the less you lose, the less you replace, the less value items carry, which trickles back to null.

There is a large number of high sec dwellers that seem to think that low and null is the only place that ships need to blow up for EVE's economy to work. That's wrong.

Ships need to blow up in high sec as much as they need to blow up in any other area of the game. Miners especially, as they're one of the biggest impactors of the new eden economy, high sec miners to be specific.

A lot don't want their ships blown up in high sec, because they shouldn't be forced to play how they don't want -as false a statement as you can make about blowing up ships in EVE, sinse demanding people not blow you up is the opposite of how it should work- and the truth is it's good to lose ships. Whether it be high sec, low sec, null, or Wh space, ships blowing up is good for EVE.

Some high sec players need to learn that it's ok to lose stuff, it's what drives the game, and when you're not getting blown up in high sec you actually have a negative contribution to the economy as a whole. If you're not spending ISK to replace ships, and only run missions, ever increasing your wallet amount, you have a negative impact on EVERYONE in EVE.


I've got no dog in this hunt I'm a low-sec trader, but as a general observation, the point made here is absurd.

Go to the map, look at the universe and Ships killed in the last 24 hours. Now, tell me again how it's safe in high?

I didn't say it was safe in high sec. I wasn't even implying that.

Complaining about getting blown up in high sec, as well as wanting to blow you up there is the only thing I was actually addressing.
Ginger Barbarella
#176 - 2012-12-12 00:15:45 UTC
oien cabrereas wrote:
I am enjoying this thread. :D


You're the only one.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#177 - 2012-12-12 00:19:27 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:


My mentality is that of an adult. Not schoolyard bully or a nerd that was bullied in school. Killing miners in hi-sec is nothing more than griefing. The day I have to kill miners in in hi-sec to feed my eve ego will be my last day in eve. Killing miners is same as clubing baby seals on the beach...niether can fight back.

Being an "adult" means very little to me when I'm doing at the age of 36 the exacts same thing I did when I was FIVE for fun.

It's a video game. I'm here to have fun.

It's just unfortunate that you chose to play a video game that allows for situations that you find unfun. It is no ones problem but you own that you do not like getting blown up while mining. I'm sorry that's so horrible for you that you would resort to equating people having fun in a video game to being bullies.

It's ok to get blown up man. You contribute positively to the game when you do. There would be no market for mining ships if you never exploded, and mining ships use a crapton of minerals. The replacement of mining vessels is no inconsiderable amount in EVE. It's good for you to blow up; the game is built on that very notion.

Just like it's good for me to blow up.
As a carebear, I don't replace ships lost in PvP. I fly a haulter, sometimes a frigate for small pick ups. I don't have expensive mods to replace, nor do I buy implants often.



What really bothers me though, is the fact that I genuinely feel that you reallly do believe what you wrote.
I'll tell you like I told both my little sisters and brother. Dont' be the victim, not ever. It's a low place to go, and an undignified way to live. You're better than.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#178 - 2012-12-12 00:21:07 UTC
As I easily imagined, my easy questions about how much should a blasted hi seccer earn to be considered "fair" in the eyes of a null seccers have been carefully avoided.

Stop puffing your holy chests and tell the truth.

Should hi seccers earn 3M per hour to earn the paid privilege to play EvE? 10M? 5M?

Tell the numbers, show you have the gonads to talk with a straight face.


Then, if you feel particularly witty, answer this: "why am I waiting CCP to break their game philosophy by FORCING me to play where I want to play?" Are you ISK driven like a Scrooge's donkey, can't have the balls to take the responsibility of your gaming choices so you call CCP to force where to go down your throat?

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#179 - 2012-12-12 00:23:15 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:


I live in null as well, in the sea of blue. There is nothing to disprove. It is what it is. People that grief in hi-sec dont do it for profit, they try to make it less of a cost when they can. Some gank freighters that can yield profit. The truth is most null players that have been in null for a while have more money than they can spend. Some people are still in null trying to make a living not everyone is rich but to many have hundreds of trillions of isk. For these people it’s not about profit it about CONTROL. Control of the market or control of other players that’s what they seek and that’s why they come here and argue and fight and complain. Every time they make hi-sec safer they lose the ability to CONTROL.

They pretend to call it pvp or sandbox or various other things. In reality it’s the ability to impose control over the carebare they don’t want to lose. Just like the poster above and other like him/her.

Know what the biggest piece of bullshit here is?

You continually implying that hi sec gankers are Null sec players. As if getting ganked in high sec means you didn't get ganked by someone else who lives in high sec, or that they didn't come from low, or WH space.

PS: notice the guy used the word "greif" to say gank?
Says a lot about the guys mentality.

There's only one way to grief in EVE, shoot a rookie.


I never meant to say grief. I guess my brain called it for what it really is. The biggest piece of bull **** here is you. I struck
The nail on the head as well as a nerve. Goofs are all about control and manipulation.

Most "goofs" I know are about laughs.

It doesn't change the fact you're wrong. Just because someone ganks you doesn't make them a null sec player. You guys just like that excuse because it sounds better then crying about getting ganked by another high seccer; which is very likely to happen.

I can honestly say I have never been gank or ganked anyone in hi-sec. Have been in a few WD and roams in null. Problem is there is no data available to determine one way or the other. i could be wrong..have been before and will be in the future. What I do know is you and people like you who have multiple account also have pilots in hi-sec. So yes the null player may not journey all the way from null to gank a hi-sec miner, but you sure can log on to your hi-sec alt and do it. So yea majority of the pilots doing the ganking may in fact be hi-sec pilots but the strings are still being pulled by low/null bears.

I am not saying there arent any good people in goofs because I know some personaly. Please dont come here and try to make it seem like your goofs dont gank in hi-sec or try to control the market or try to manipulate any thing you can get your grubby little fingers in. I may have been born at night but it wasnt last night.

It doesnt matter who the person is or where they come from that kills the miner. What matters is you and people like you try to justify it as pvp/sandbox or what ever other word you can come up with. Its invasive and exploiting of mechanics to impose your CONTROL over someone else because you can and you want to be asshats.

Just because something can be done doesnt mean it should be done.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#180 - 2012-12-12 00:43:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Xindi Kraid
Jenn aSide wrote:
Xindi Kraid wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Am I the only one that sees null sec guys trying to give rational and thoughfull answers, only to met with mostly insult?

at this point, both sides are spewing bullshit and ignoring anthing that doesn't agree with them.


That's a cop out, a truly neutral person could view what has been said here and readily understand that we're right and the other guys are just...well...High Sec.

Please enlighten us to the flaws in our argument so that we can set them right, for the good of all (in-game) mankind.

The most meaningful commentary was given fairly early on, a few pages later we get people arguing back and for about nothing and refusing to even consider the other's position, and we are transitioning into empty minded insults. See the tirade you're involved in about effort and how Player X isn't putting enough in.

The "at this point" part was important, believe it or not.
===
Anyways everyone seems to be mistaking mechanics for people.
The MECHANICS are broken (either HS pays too much or null pays too little, and trying to do industry in a POS is a joke meaning most everything in null was made in highsec); if you think that is in dispute, then you are misinformed.
The crux of the issue here is that somehow people are twisting that into HS PLAYERS are bad people, and worse still, are using the above reasoning, as justification. Living in high sec does NOT mean you are somehow killing EvE.

Just gonna leave this here.
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
It's funny, because this thread, with a few notable exceptions, pretty much turned into a microcosm of the example; Each side of the argument circle-jerking posters that are on their side, posting hyperbole, ad-hominem attacks, and emotionally charged 'logic'.