These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Why does nullsec care so much about what highsec is doing?

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din
Commonwealth Vanguard
#141 - 2012-12-11 18:49:27 UTC
The important aspect is mentioned in your post. To **** people off. In game it isnt really an issue as people are busily playing their game but forum warrioring is an important part of eve, and the most important part of that is to try and upset lots of people apparently.

One very important thing to realise is this: Almost every single player in nullsec also has alts that never leave hisec, so there really arnt many pure nullsec players anyway. See all those afk miners? A fair percentage of tehm are alts of nullsec people. Same with mission runners, haulers, marketeers, manufacturers...

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.
Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Doomheim
#142 - 2012-12-11 19:05:41 UTC
Rico Minali wrote:
The important aspect is mentioned in your post. To **** people off. In game it isnt really an issue as people are busily playing their game but forum warrioring is an important part of eve, and the most important part of that is to try and upset lots of people apparently.

One very important thing to realise is this: Almost every single player in nullsec also has alts that never leave hisec, so there really arnt many pure nullsec players anyway. See all those afk miners? A fair percentage of tehm are alts of nullsec people. Same with mission runners, haulers, marketeers, manufacturers...



Why would we have a Hi Sec alt?

For the times you need isk, but your home systems are camped.
For the times you want to play the game, but in a more casual fashion and don't want to be bothered with camping the intel channels.
For the times RL makes it so Null Sec gameplay is too much an effort, but you still want to play the game in some manner.
To try a different aspect of the game when the gameplay you currently are doing becomes stale.
To maintain your personal logistics chain.
...and many other numerous reasons.


I haven't seen any stats, but it would be interesting to see how many active Hi Sec Characters are alts of "Other Sec" mains.
I would wager more than would admit it, and maybe even a significant majority are.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#143 - 2012-12-11 19:32:49 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:


I live in null as well, in the sea of blue. There is nothing to disprove. It is what it is. People that grief in hi-sec dont do it for profit, they try to make it less of a cost when they can. Some gank freighters that can yield profit. The truth is most null players that have been in null for a while have more money than they can spend. Some people are still in null trying to make a living not everyone is rich but to many have hundreds of trillions of isk. For these people it’s not about profit it about CONTROL. Control of the market or control of other players that’s what they seek and that’s why they come here and argue and fight and complain. Every time they make hi-sec safer they lose the ability to CONTROL.

They pretend to call it pvp or sandbox or various other things. In reality it’s the ability to impose control over the carebare they don’t want to lose. Just like the poster above and other like him/her.

Know what the biggest piece of bullshit here is?

You continually implying that hi sec gankers are Null sec players. As if getting ganked in high sec means you didn't get ganked by someone else who lives in high sec, or that they didn't come from low, or WH space.

PS: notice the guy used the word "greif" to say gank?
Says a lot about the guys mentality.

There's only one way to grief in EVE, shoot a rookie.

Heh, you're a "griefer" you need to be banned.

Evil goons~~

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#144 - 2012-12-11 19:35:45 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Heh, you're a "griefer" you need to be banned.

Evil goons~~

They are something awful aren't they?



Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#145 - 2012-12-11 20:07:08 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Schalac wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


If you live in high sec you have to put forth very little effort to make more isk than someone living in null.


Because it takes so much effort to bounce from belt to belt killing rats for 15-20 mil a tick. I bet you can make so much more in highsec doing the same thing too right.



I LOVE replies like this, because you can tell the person posting hasn't been to null since at least 2008.

Right, now you can bounce from anomaly to anomaly for better isk than that.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#146 - 2012-12-11 20:07:42 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
There's only one way to grief in EVE, shoot a rookie.


Well that, like most absolutes, isn't entirely true is it?

Heck, you don't even have to be in game...
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#147 - 2012-12-11 20:10:45 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Am I the only one that sees null sec guys trying to give rational and thoughfull answers, only to met with mostly insult?

at this point, both sides are spewing bullshit and ignoring anthing that doesn't agree with them.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#148 - 2012-12-11 20:15:23 UTC
Malphilos wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
There's only one way to grief in EVE, shoot a rookie.


Well that, like most absolutes, isn't entirely true is it?

Heck, you don't even have to be in game...

I'm pretty sure CCP considers greifing to be harrasmet of new players by shooting them or baiting them into getting shot.

There' nothing else, I can think of, that CCP will ban you for doing to another player. Short of verbal herassment or threatening them, and that's not "griefing".
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#149 - 2012-12-11 20:24:30 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Am I the only one that sees null sec guys trying to give rational and thoughfull answers, only to met with mostly insult?

at this point, both sides are spewing bullshit and ignoring anthing that doesn't agree with them.


That's a cop out, a truly neutral person could view what has been said here and readily understand that we're right and the other guys are just...well...High Sec.

Please enlighten us to the flaws in our argument so that we can set them right, for the good of all (in-game) mankind.
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#150 - 2012-12-11 20:28:40 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
There's only one way to grief in EVE, shoot a rookie.


Well that, like most absolutes, isn't entirely true is it?

Heck, you don't even have to be in game...

I'm pretty sure CCP considers greifing to be harrasmet of new players by shooting them or baiting them into getting shot.

There' nothing else, I can think of, that CCP will ban you for doing to another player. Short of verbal herassment or threatening them, and that's not "griefing".


I'm pretty sure they consider can baiting noobs in specific systems to be prime examples of "grief play", and define the issue much more broadly. Something like "consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others".

Broadly enough that there's a fair amount of indignant crying from some quarters every now and again because they can't figure out exactly where the line is. But it's broader than just shooting noobs.
Hestia Mar
Calmaretto
#151 - 2012-12-11 20:46:58 UTC
One point that players seem to forget/ignore is that there are very few players (as % of the total player base) who play nullsec only; most nullsec players will also have hi-sec alts.

The argument about the balance of the economy would hold true if it were only possible to have one character who was either null or highsec - but while nullbears are using hi-sec as well as null, that argument doesn't work - with the right mix of skills, after the initial investment into a hulk, BPC's etc, a player could in theory be self-sufficient without spending any (or at least very few) ISK in the market.
HollyShocker 2inthestink
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#152 - 2012-12-11 20:47:03 UTC  |  Edited by: E-2C Hawkeye
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:


I live in null as well, in the sea of blue. There is nothing to disprove. It is what it is. People that grief in hi-sec dont do it for profit, they try to make it less of a cost when they can. Some gank freighters that can yield profit. The truth is most null players that have been in null for a while have more money than they can spend. Some people are still in null trying to make a living not everyone is rich but to many have hundreds of trillions of isk. For these people it’s not about profit it about CONTROL. Control of the market or control of other players that’s what they seek and that’s why they come here and argue and fight and complain. Every time they make hi-sec safer they lose the ability to CONTROL.

They pretend to call it pvp or sandbox or various other things. In reality it’s the ability to impose control over the carebare they don’t want to lose. Just like the poster above and other like him/her.

Know what the biggest piece of bullshit here is?

You continually implying that hi sec gankers are Null sec players. As if getting ganked in high sec means you didn't get ganked by someone else who lives in high sec, or that they didn't come from low, or WH space.

PS: notice the guy used the word "greif" to say gank?
Says a lot about the guys mentality.

There's only one way to grief in EVE, shoot a rookie.


I never meant to say grief. I guess my brain called it for what it really is. The biggest piece of bull **** here is you. I struck
The nail on the head as well as a nerve. Goofs are all about control and manipulation.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#153 - 2012-12-11 20:52:13 UTC
You know, I read this whole thread, and neither side actually addressed the question in the OP with a serious answer.

The rewards from highsec and nullsec are distinctly different (except for isk), and there seems to be quite a bit of mythology and choosing sides going about.

"The economy" isn't a thing you can break, it is a matrix of trades. Nullsec players can get billions of isk for officer modules from highsec mission runners because the modules only spawn in nullsec and highsec mission runners have the isk to spend. *That* is the economy, and I would think that nerfing direct isk payouts to highsec mission runners would quite effectively nerf the income potential for nullsec players that are actually bringing in the ores, moon goo, and top modules that the highsec players need to do their thing for top benefit.

Of course, a portion of the production of highsec has to make it back out to nullsec to keep the lines rolling out there, too, but I would think that nullsec dwellers of all people would be able to see the lines of inter-security trade more clearly.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#154 - 2012-12-11 20:58:07 UTC
Many nullsec players derive their main ISK income directly from hisec or through hisec alts. They come up to hisec to do Incursions, L4 missions, invention, manufacture, station trading, etc. Of course heading to hisec (or logging into their alt account) to do these activities takes them away from their familiar community and activities in nullsec. They feel lonely while doing the hisec grind. Since these activities take them away from null sec, they feel that CCP should do something to their hisec activities in order to force them go to nullsec to do their ISK grinding.

Other nullsec players are involved in industry. They have massive spreadsheets to help them calculate the optimal logistics for mineral compression items to purchase in Jita to then ferry down to null sec, reprocess and convert into space ships, ammunition, etc. Some of these people are growing tired of the constant battle with spreadsheets. They want industry to be more viable in null sec so they can have more time to enjoy the game and less time being the meat robot implementing the instructions of a spreadsheet.

Then there are the null bears who have NAP/NIPs that include just about everyone else in nullsec. They are desperate to have something to shoot, to the point of causing diplomatic incidents just so they can experience the pleasure of explosions and the "KERTHUNK" sound. They genuinely believe that there is some way to force hisec players to head to lowsec or null sec, and they genuinely believe that doing so would provide nullbears with more targets to shoot!

So there is my take on why nullbears care so much about what hisec players are doing.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Aaden Dante
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#155 - 2012-12-11 21:15:34 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

The safer it is in high sec, the less you lose, the less you replace, the less value items carry, which trickles back to null.

There is a large number of high sec dwellers that seem to think that low and null is the only place that ships need to blow up for EVE's economy to work. That's wrong.

Ships need to blow up in high sec as much as they need to blow up in any other area of the game. Miners especially, as they're one of the biggest impactors of the new eden economy, high sec miners to be specific.

A lot don't want their ships blown up in high sec, because they shouldn't be forced to play how they don't want -as false a statement as you can make about blowing up ships in EVE, sinse demanding people not blow you up is the opposite of how it should work- and the truth is it's good to lose ships. Whether it be high sec, low sec, null, or Wh space, ships blowing up is good for EVE.

Some high sec players need to learn that it's ok to lose stuff, it's what drives the game, and when you're not getting blown up in high sec you actually have a negative contribution to the economy as a whole. If you're not spending ISK to replace ships, and only run missions, ever increasing your wallet amount, you have a negative impact on EVERYONE in EVE.


I've got no dog in this hunt I'm a low-sec trader, but as a general observation, the point made here is absurd.

Go to the map, look at the universe and Ships killed in the last 24 hours. Now, tell me again how it's safe in high?
YoYo NickyYo
Doomheim
#156 - 2012-12-11 21:53:03 UTC

Because most of Null is empty, and they want more targets......Cool


I am not, nor will I ever be...Nicky Yo.... The question you should ask is.....When will they release the NICKY!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#157 - 2012-12-11 21:58:24 UTC
Aaden Dante wrote:
Now, tell me again how it's safe in high?


Park a badger on a busy gate in high sec and count how long it takes for someone to kill you. Then do the same on a busy 0.0 gate.

Report back with which is safer.
oien cabrereas
Gold Trading Inc..
#158 - 2012-12-11 22:08:41 UTC
I am enjoying this thread. :D
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#159 - 2012-12-11 22:09:58 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
so what was your council of stellar null grand poobahs doing for half a decade

I'm glad you asked!

CSM 1-4 were powerless talking shops without the infrastructure or drive to push for action, which mostly existed to add items to an ever-increasing backlog of issues that CCP then ignored. CCP decided to actually make use of the CSM during CSM5, which had a largely empire-based presense but nonetheless was heavily involved in discussions about the future of a 0.0 that few of them had any knowledge of. The 0.0 - dominated CSM6 came about as a response to this and the infamous CSM5 jump bridge nerf discussions.

Since CSM6 we've had no major new features thanks to the Incarna fallout and the 'thousand little things' expansions that followed, but we've seen hints that we'll see more substantial efforts towards fixing the big issues in the not-so-distant future.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Silath Slyver Silverpine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2012-12-11 22:12:54 UTC
It's funny, because this thread, with a few notable exceptions, pretty much turned into a microcosm of the example; Each side of the argument circle-jerking posters that are on their side, posting hyperbole, ad-hominem attacks, and emotionally charged 'logic'.

I've also realized, thanks to the replies of several here, that there's no reason both null and highsec can't both be profitable and fun. Null does not have to get nerfed to boost highsec, and vice versa. Lastly and most importantly though, I have learned that this constant bickering between us serves only to distract our efforts from the real issues at hand.

Although sadly I think one person may have had it right earlier (Sorry, I forget your name x.x) when they said that it essentially boils down to human nature; the necessity for it to always be 'us' vs. 'them', regardless of the facts.