These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Why does nullsec care so much about what highsec is doing?

First post
Author
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#81 - 2012-12-11 15:47:58 UTC
Harland White wrote:
The game is perfectly fine the way it is. Null sec zealots and their CCP and CSM allies (who are 99% null sec zealots themselves) simply want a huge influx of new players to move into null so they can line their killboards more. That's ALL it boils down to. They want to nerf high-sec into oblivion to force a big portion of the newer playerbase into null, so they can get a shitload of new, free killmails.

Prove me wrong. Seriously.



its not all that bad.....I started as an empire bear. Gave null sec a go, and found it to be quite fun most of the time. Msot of the time may sound bad but hell even bashing in mission rats has its why the hell do I keep doing this moments.

You make getting km's sound like it s bad thing. Some work and admittedly some dying and eventually you are on the top half of the kb more than the bottom half (assuming your average kb structure of kills first then the losses). It can be quite fun.

Hell tbh...some of the most fun I have had resulted in 1 lossmail for me. Fairish fights, not alot of cheap shots....I simply lost because other guy was better in a more 1 v 1 setting (or small skirmish went more man on man tactics) or the other side had better tactics in "the blob' fights (yes the blob gets used as an ugly word...it does have some moments where it can be tactical though).

Now am i forcing any one to give it a go. No. Will I aks why you play a mmo that unless really good you cuold pick up lots of nice single player games if that lone wolfish cost less than an average of 6 month in subs before you are plexing regulary ? Yes. Hell cruise steam often....get some nice discounts monthly if not weekly there. Will i also ask why you keep on playing eve when at that point its just another job? Yep.

But too each their own. I wish all the dedicated empire bears well in thir eve travels. But I will also say they are missing out on some damn good times in the process. Me I am stuck in empire because rl hasn't give me quality game time for quite a while. Way more fun out there...jsut don't get caught up in the CAOD crap and its all good. I keep on planning to go back..and then rl says naaah, I got something to fill in that extra 2 hours an night you found bro lol.

Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Doomheim
#82 - 2012-12-11 15:53:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Yusef Yeasef Yosef
I would say that it is only a vocal minority that complains about Hi Sec.
The following is about that vocal minority.

I would also say that the main reason many of them complain is because that they felt cheated because they were told that Null was the shiznit of all New Eden and they found that there isn't too many easy targets out there for them after awhile.

They found that they actually have to work to get on enough KMs to soothe their ego, because many of the players who are active out there are active out there because they have been able to survive to make it worth their while, so they don't get killed too often.

After a while they got bored. They then heard of this mistical place where players can play the game without too much interference from other players. Where they can mine and mission to their hearts content and actually enjoyed this.

This made the unhapply null dude sad, then he got angry. No one can enjoy this game if he can't. Besides, how can someone enjoy this PvP game by mainly doing PvE in this mistical somewhat safe place.

First the unhapply null dude tried to get CCP to change it so all the top Hi Sec stufff get moved to Low or Null. When that didn't happen the unhappy null dude decided if these Hi Sec "Carebears" won't come to them for the PvP he enjoys, then he will bring the PvP to them. That will change their ways.

Hence came the war on Hi Sec, until they come to their senses and go PvP in Null Sec so the unhappy null dude doen't have to work so hard to make his KB look so good.



Obviously it is far more complicated than this, but from my experiences in Null Alliances, Pirate Corps, and running missions myself; It is amazing how much of it can be boiled down to this uneasy truth.

Some players can not stand it when other players enjoy parts of this game that they do not, and will do all they can to destroy those other players enjoyment of the gameplay they chose to take part in. Seen it in the kindergarden sand box all too often and it is interesting how little things change.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#83 - 2012-12-11 15:54:35 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:

Many of us use highsec alts to generate income, yes (I don't). It has become a necessary evil under the current system since nullsec ratting systems can only really support 2 or 3 characters at a time compared to the infinitely scaling highsec missions and ice belts, but in the long run it greatly damages the health of 0.0 life. You'll see multiple threads here and elsewhere complaining that 0.0 is dead and empty and that roaming gankers can't find anyone to kill except a massive blob, and it's largely because everyone is running a highsec alt under CONCORD's protection and only logs into their 0.0 character for some sort of alliance fleet op. There's simply no incentive for the typical player to leave highsec and see what the more player-controlled side of the game has to offer, and that's harmful to the future of a game which relies largely on player-created content for much of its marketing.

With all the bullshit being tossed around, this is actually a good observation.

HVAC Repairman wrote:
You're acting like it's a war on hisec, I don't care where people play. The current Risk vs. Reward right now is hilariously and stupidly broken. The Risk vs. Reward ratio needs to be redone

The problem is a lot of null players do turn it into a war on highsec in general.
There's way too many threads and posts about how stupid and worthless carebears are, how they don't get the game and are ruining EvE, etc. and how they should all leave. That's all unconstructive bullshit that not only ends uup gettint in the way of the real issue, it also places the attcked party (HS dwellers) on the defensive, primed to say no to any suggestions seen as being made specifically to nerf high sec for the benefit of the null bears.

Some mechanics are a bit wonky so now it's somehow the fault of anyone who prefers to live in HS.
How does that make any sense?
Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#84 - 2012-12-11 15:59:30 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

EVe may be the wrong game for you, as EFFORT is the second name of the game (the real 1st name is CONFLICT). Thing is, the effort is only in the set up, not the operation.


Says the guy who is in a coalition, and trained to use capitals. Lets talk about how much effort it is for you.

Cynos really take most of the effort out of transporting things. Here I thought it was a game about effort.

First thing someone does when they join a coalition is figure out how to get their stuff down there. Is it through putting in the effort to jump through 40 gates through null? No, all it takes is 1 or 2 carrier jumps and you have all the stuffs moved.

Effort right?

I mean, since you have a carrier, you could just quit your alliance and go somewhere else. Undock, jump to lit cyno in lowsec and you can start your trek to the other side of the galaxy if you wanted too. So, less effort to leave null as well.

SP really helps in null. it factors on how much "effort" you have to put in.

Maybe Null isn't for me, for now, but that doesn't mean highsec isn't for me right now.

once you can use a carrier (for transport), the difficulty of living in null dramatically decreases.

Just because null isn't for someone, doesn't mean they shouldn't be playing Eve, that is a dumb and knee-jerk argument.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#85 - 2012-12-11 16:03:05 UTC
I'll just leave this trivial question here:

"How much ISK per hour is the "fair amount" that an hi seccer should be able to do?"

I am really interested in the answers.


Oh well while I am here I'll slip another brain dead easy question:

"Since making ISK in nullsec seems so bad, capping hi sec ISK / hour to 3M (three) and FORCING you nullseccers back in null sec (great sandbox concept you ask imo Roll), how would that help you farm ISK for the PvP ships again? Wouldn't it still remain so bad and insufficient?"

That is, how will neutering hi sec rewards help your now forced-to-nullsec alts earn better income?
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#86 - 2012-12-11 16:04:19 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Yeah, we're annoyed at CCP for allowing these issues to build up to the point where newer players believe that's just the way it is and should always be. Its a natural conclusion to draw that 'the designers must have meant it to be this way, what are these guys complaining about' rather than that CCP have allowed an imbalance to build up for over half a decade. But when those same newer players start to invent ulterior motives to dismiss our legitimate concerns (you'll see a several of these in this very thread) and loudly proclaim that there's no imbalance and that the status quo should be preserved, spouting well rehearsed talking points about Griefing Bully Nullbear Control-Freak Whiners, they become part of the problem too.
.


so what was your council of stellar null grand poobahs doing for half a decade
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#87 - 2012-12-11 16:08:30 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
My problem with highsec is the fact that none of the sods who live there can read

judging by this thread any way. I see plenty of people discussing issues and the nature of the game, and then a bunch of hiseccers putting their fingers in their ears and yelling about being persecuted, or "bullied" into playing a different way, or how they don't effect anyone else and should be exempt, and a load of other stuff that is laughably false
Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Doomheim
#88 - 2012-12-11 16:09:51 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I'll just leave this trivial question here:

"How much ISK per hour is the "fair amount" that an hi seccer should be able to do?"

I am really interested in the answers.





Depends on how long one has been playing the game. The longer you have played, the more you should be able to make.

A Hi Sec Vet should be able to make more than a Null Sec noob.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#89 - 2012-12-11 16:11:35 UTC
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
HVAC Repairman wrote:

What people have a problem with is that a player with no risk will make just as much money (if not more) vs a player who will make the same (or less) with everything to risk. The balance is just dumb in this regard.


but if eve is sandbox why dont you make iskmaking in highsec more dangerous?you can do it

yeah you will loose a lot of ships,but thats the risk - are you willing to take it? if not why should i take risk flying to lowsec?


And when the community put together hulkageddons what happened? The highseccers cried and cried and eventually CCP handed them ridiculous buffs and crimewatch 2.0.

And as a result of that the New Order popped up, and again what happened? Highseccers crying and crying about "bumping"...
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#90 - 2012-12-11 16:13:32 UTC
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I'll just leave this trivial question here:

"How much ISK per hour is the "fair amount" that an hi seccer should be able to do?"

I am really interested in the answers.





Depends on how long one has been playing the game. The longer you have played, the more you should be able to make.

A Hi Sec Vet should be able to make more than a Null Sec noob.


Well said.
Lipbite
Express Hauler
#91 - 2012-12-11 16:14:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Lipbite
Separatism is natural evolution mechanics in terms of overpopulation (i.e. food abundance): by dividing population on "red" and "blue", "communists" and "capitalists", "carebears" and "null-bears" nature make sure there will be multiple separate gene pools which lead to forming of new separate species sooner or later.

Human evolution didn't stop and humans aren't exempt from that mechanics - in fact they embrace it via modern / tribal warfare, nationalism, separatism, etc. And EVE players aren't exempt from biology as well - at least those who cannot control it. And it seems null sec populated by people with less control over their basic instincts. And there are some arsoles who exploit this natural phenomenon by forming political parties, separatist governments and driving naive souls into bloody wars, revolutions, mutual hatered over very simple to resolve and often even non-existent reasons.

TL;DR it's not people's fault they hate others over made up "reasons" - it's very basic biology.

P.S. Not political post / trolling, just information unknown to most people, plz don't ban me =)
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#92 - 2012-12-11 16:18:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Metal Icarus wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

EVe may be the wrong game for you, as EFFORT is the second name of the game (the real 1st name is CONFLICT). Thing is, the effort is only in the set up, not the operation.


Says the guy who is in a coalition, and trained to use capitals. Lets talk about how much effort it is for you.

Cynos really take most of the effort out of transporting things. Here I thought it was a game about effort.

First thing someone does when they join a coalition is figure out how to get their stuff down there. Is it through putting in the effort to jump through 40 gates through null? No, all it takes is 1 or 2 carrier jumps and you have all the stuffs moved.

Effort right?

I mean, since you have a carrier, you could just quit your alliance and go somewhere else. Undock, jump to lit cyno in lowsec and you can start your trek to the other side of the galaxy if you wanted too. So, less effort to leave null as well.

SP really helps in null. it factors on how much "effort" you have to put in.

Maybe Null isn't for me, for now, but that doesn't mean highsec isn't for me right now.

once you can use a carrier (for transport), the difficulty of living in null dramatically decreases.

Just because null isn't for someone, doesn't mean they shouldn't be playing Eve, that is a dumb and knee-jerk argument.


you don know i have been in my alliance and coalition for like 3 weeks right?

i've been in several in the past, NCDot was the latest, Raiden before that, -A- (breifly) before that, IT (briefly) before that and my real null sec "career" started with Atlas (the original).

But what is your point? I had none of those things when I started playing in 2007. i WORKED for them, put in the time and effort, learned the game, shot MILLIONS of Red Xs a a mission runner then explorer, and now , after 5 years of in game effort I have some of what I want.

Just because YOU can't figure out how to do it means nothing for me. Nothing is preventing you from training for a carrier, or did ccp put a magical No-Caps lock on your account ???
Randolph Rothstein
whatever corp.
#93 - 2012-12-11 16:20:58 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
HVAC Repairman wrote:

What people have a problem with is that a player with no risk will make just as much money (if not more) vs a player who will make the same (or less) with everything to risk. The balance is just dumb in this regard.


but if eve is sandbox why dont you make iskmaking in highsec more dangerous?you can do it

yeah you will loose a lot of ships,but thats the risk - are you willing to take it? if not why should i take risk flying to lowsec?


And when the community put together hulkageddons what happened? The highseccers cried and cried and eventually CCP handed them ridiculous buffs and crimewatch 2.0.

And as a result of that the New Order popped up, and again what happened? Highseccers crying and crying about "bumping"...


and you surrendered?

what makes you stop doing hulkageddon again?

all i see around is lot of crying how highsec is safe and no pew pew - mount your ship and make it dangerous - together you can make the difference
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#94 - 2012-12-11 16:21:21 UTC
Jake Warbird wrote:
Honestly OP, why should you care? If I had more time to spend at this game, I would definitely look to join a nullsec corp/alliance. All this drivel about being 'just another drone' is getting really old.

And I'll let you in on a secret... They keep poking at hisec 'carebears' because of the abundance of tears and butthurt it generates. It's just hilarious how some people get mad and keep posting insane **** just because some 'nullsec zealot' said something about nerfing their income.

p.s great poasting Jenn. You said most of what needs to be said. +1000 if I could.


i think the nullbear tears are more entertaining
half of these carebear victim OPs are probably trolling alts
Ginger Barbarella
#95 - 2012-12-11 16:21:42 UTC
Oooh, look... this thread. Again.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

Random Majere
Rogue Fleet
#96 - 2012-12-11 16:22:00 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Your analogy is off. It's not some kid in a corner minding his own business, it's a kid on a swing , STAYING on the swing so no one else can use it (basically affecting the whole play ground) then wondering why his ass got knocked off the swing "when he wasn't doing nothin to no one".


Shocked
Jenn aSide!!!...I do not know if you have kids...but if you do and if you are telling your kid to "knockoff" other kids that stay to long on a swing...expect him/her to eventually come home with a shinner or something....and that would be your fault Smile.

Seriously...!
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#97 - 2012-12-11 16:24:22 UTC
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
I would say that it is only a vocal minority that complains about Hi Sec.
The following is about that vocal minority.

I would also say that the main reason many of them complain is because that they felt cheated because they were told that Null was the shiznit of all New Eden and they found that there isn't too many easy targets out there for them after awhile.

They found that they actually have to work to get on enough KMs to soothe their ego, because many of the players who are active out there are active out there because they have been able to survive to make it worth their while, so they don't get killed too often.

After a while they got bored. They then heard of this mistical place where players can play the game without too much interference from other players. Where they can mine and mission to their hearts content and actually enjoyed this.

This made the unhapply null dude sad, then he got angry. No one can enjoy this game if he can't. Besides, how can someone enjoy this PvP game by mainly doing PvE in this mistical somewhat safe place.

First the unhapply null dude tried to get CCP to change it so all the top Hi Sec stufff get moved to Low or Null. When that didn't happen the unhappy null dude decided if these Hi Sec "Carebears" won't come to them for the PvP he enjoys, then he will bring the PvP to them. That will change their ways.

Hence came the war on Hi Sec, until they come to their senses and go PvP in Null Sec so the unhappy null dude doen't have to work so hard to make his KB look so good.



Obviously it is far more complicated than this, but from my experiences in Null Alliances, Pirate Corps, and running missions myself; It is amazing how much of it can be boiled down to this uneasy truth.

Some players can not stand it when other players enjoy parts of this game that they do not, and will do all they can to destroy those other players enjoyment of the gameplay they chose to take part in. Seen it in the kindergarden sand box all too often and it is interesting how little things change.


Self-Serving BS. Again, almost no one cares about what others do. Some of us care about the whole game and it's health. Others want to extract tears and people like you oblige all the time by clinging to the "your must have a problem with how I play" lies.

The "unhappy nullsec guy" is another such lie. It comes from "carebear reasoning" that is null was so fun, their would've be null seccers ganking me. They don't understand that null can be totally fun and they STILL get ganked, because it doesn't take all null sec players to gank a freighter lol.

Some people go where the tears and profit is. Cry less and don't carry riches around stupidly and you high sec people would find few and few null sec people anywhere near high sec...
Jack Tronic
borkedLabs
#98 - 2012-12-11 16:26:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Tronic
Mai Khumm wrote:
Highsec players don't play the game the way nullsec players want them to...

Nullsec wants more mindless drones to "orbit and press F1" to fight their wars and boost their oversized egos...


Says the mindless drone in IRC of all alliances.

You do realize IRC's leadership has the entire alliance designed to rake in loads of profit for themselves right? You are better off being a SOLAR pet than in IRC.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#99 - 2012-12-11 16:28:01 UTC
Random Majere wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Your analogy is off. It's not some kid in a corner minding his own business, it's a kid on a swing , STAYING on the swing so no one else can use it (basically affecting the whole play ground) then wondering why his ass got knocked off the swing "when he wasn't doing nothin to no one".


Shocked
Jenn aSide!!!...I do not know if you have kids...but if you do and if you are telling your kid to "knockoff" other kids that stay to long on a swing...expect him/her to eventually come home with a shinner or something....and that would be your fault Smile.

Seriously...!


My kids (especially my oldest girl) would eat yours and laugh about it. As soon as they are old enough, I'ma teach em to tackle and get them EVE accounts, if for no other reason to keep them away from games like WoW.

But anyways, i never told anyone to knock off anyone else. If anything I'd tell my kids "don't be that jerk on the swing that doesn't understand other people actually exist and have rights too".

Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Doomheim
#100 - 2012-12-11 16:35:11 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

The "unhappy nullsec guy" is another such lie. .



Maybe in your experiences, but I had to listen to such BS about the evils of the "Hi Sec carebear" from whinny Null Sec warriors on TS on many Alliance roams over the years.

I enjoy all parts of the game, Null Sec, Low Sec, and Hi Sec; but I can't stand it when people blame others for their lack of enjoyment of the game.

The whinny Null Sec Warrior is the worse offender in this regard at this time, in my opinion.

They are the ones who seem to want to force more players into Low and Null, by consistently trying to get content moved there from Hi Sec.