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By what right?
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Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-12-11 11:44:48 UTC
But they are still ethnically and culturally Caldari, whatever you may think of them, you cannot deny that.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#42 - 2012-12-11 11:59:52 UTC
Astera Zandraki wrote:
But they are still ethnically and culturally Caldari, whatever you may think of them, you cannot deny that.


If they do not stand in service to the Megacorporations of the CEP and the Caldari State, then no, they are not Caldari. To be Caldari is to be willing and able to work or fight for the greater glory and destiny of the State which as I stated, is the only legitimate heir to the destiny of the Caldari people.

There is no separation between the State and Caldari, they are unified as one whole.

I get the gist of your thoughts, but no, a fragmented and culturally diluted Caldari minority in the Federation is just that: a fragmented and culturally diluted minority. Feel free to use them as the poster children for some propaganda branding them as some sort of tacit approval of the Federation by the Caldari people though just because they happen to live there.

I will feel just as free to laugh at the expense of your own ignorance.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#43 - 2012-12-11 12:05:39 UTC
They are a regrettable subculture merely tolerated by the federation or outright pets. A role model they are not. They may share the same ancestry and customs as true caldari but by now they're descendents of those who lacked the integrity to do what was necessary for the greater collective to survive.
This dishonor they've brought upon them is easily purged once they decide to become citizens themselves.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
Jace Sarice
#44 - 2012-12-11 12:27:44 UTC
We can absolutely deny that they are culturally Caldari. Despite their ancestry and emulation of our culture, they have chosen to live in disservice to the State and to our people. Their individual origins of cowardice far outweighs any Caldari ancestry they may have. And as others have noted, it would still be possible for them to return to their people and reclaim the honorable strands of their heritage. But until they do so, they are not Caldari in culture or fact.
Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-12-11 13:47:48 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:


I get the gist of your thoughts, but no, a fragmented and culturally diluted Caldari minority in the Federation is just that: a fragmented and culturally diluted minority. Feel free to use them as the poster children for some propaganda branding them as some sort of tacit approval of the Federation by the Caldari people though just because they happen to live there.



Those nations have traditional Raata governments, stick extremely stringently to Raata traditions and principals and the Federation has a definite 'hands off' approach to them. They are Caldari, they look Caldari, they act Caldari. To say that they're not because they do not agree with you or want to be a part of Heth's state is somewhat absolutist.
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#46 - 2012-12-11 14:02:59 UTC
The Raata Empire dissolved over two thousand years before the founding of the federation.

Do not tell us what being Caldari means.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#47 - 2012-12-11 14:10:45 UTC
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:

I too have noticed this, Seriphyn. It is a painful shame that anyone who doesn't fall in line with the Republic's jingoistic war-drum is called a traitor. Every day I see people of Minmatar ethnicity (whetever their tribal and clan identities may be) furthering the well-being of the Minmatar people, or even all people, in ways no less important or spectacular than those of the Freedom Fighters.

*****


Sod off, and stay out of this. As Ava said in a different thread, I find it funny that non-Matari are even weighing in on this when they have no clue. And by the Spirits, stop using poor analogies from your personal combat experience. They are irrelevant here.


So, when a non-Minmatar creates the thread and you happen to agree with him, you fawn over him like a Gallente fangirl. Then, when I disagree with you're point of view, I get told to "sod off, because I'm not Matari."

Hypocrite.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Anslo
Scope Works
#48 - 2012-12-11 14:19:43 UTC
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:

I too have noticed this, Seriphyn. It is a painful shame that anyone who doesn't fall in line with the Republic's jingoistic war-drum is called a traitor. Every day I see people of Minmatar ethnicity (whetever their tribal and clan identities may be) furthering the well-being of the Minmatar people, or even all people, in ways no less important or spectacular than those of the Freedom Fighters.

*****


Sod off, and stay out of this. As Ava said in a different thread, I find it funny that non-Matari are even weighing in on this when they have no clue. And by the Spirits, stop using poor analogies from your personal combat experience. They are irrelevant here.


So, when a non-Minmatar creates the thread and you happen to agree with him, you fawn over him like a Gallente fangirl. Then, when I disagree with you're point of view, I get told to "sod off, because I'm not Matari."

Hypocrite.


Might have something to do with you being hostile about it in the first place.



Oh yeah, and that whole supporting their enemy thing. That also might be a tiny factor.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#49 - 2012-12-11 14:29:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Astera Zandraki wrote:
Those nations have traditional Raata governments, stick extremely stringently to Raata traditions and principals and the Federation has a definite 'hands off' approach to them. They are Caldari, they look Caldari, they act Caldari. To say that they're not because they do not agree with you or want to be a part of Heth's state is somewhat absolutist.


You are not Caldari.

You do not look Caldari.

You do not act Caldari.

In much the same way that any people's or individuals who have chosen to live under the dominance of a foreign government and cultural mileu are not, and will never be Caldari despite their affectations, pretensions or delusions to the contrary. If they do not agree with the State then they do not agree with the majority of Caldari and are nothing more than collaborators, traitors and those that have spat upon their heritage and history.

They are nothing more than the disassociated and are given the same options: rejoin the State or be ignored for abandoning duty, loyalty and tradition. As for the State being absolutist because of it? Hardly. They have the same options as any citizen, lead a productive life valuing work, service and tradition in the name of the State or continue in their lives of shame and disgrace as the shunned and outcast dogs that they are.

By your liberal ideology I suppose anyone in the Federation can get some tribal tattoos and call themselves Minmatar, read about the Ida and call themselves Intaki, or teach themselves Lirsautton cuisine and call themselves Jin-Mei then?

How quaint.

I say no, and irrespective of what such Federal citizens may call themselves or how they may pretend, they are not, and will never be Caldari for they have turned their backs on their people and the State they have created.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2012-12-11 14:34:31 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:


I say no, and irrespective of what such Federal citizens may call themselves or how they may pretend they are not, and will never be Caldari for they have turned their backs on their people and the State they have created.


They were never involved in the State. The never left it, it was created and they chose not to take part. I am well aware that I am not Caldari, I never claimed such. But I've heard of non-ethnic Minmatar being accepted into clans, I've heard of people marrying into Jin-Mei castes, you seems to have this monolithic perception of culture and ethnicity which is just incorrect, they are both mercurial.
Tali Ambraelle
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2012-12-11 14:36:30 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Astera Zandraki wrote:
Those nations have traditional Raata governments, stick extremely stringently to Raata traditions and principals and the Federation has a definite 'hands off' approach to them. They are Caldari, they look Caldari, they act Caldari. To say that they're not because they do not agree with you or want to be a part of Heth's state is somewhat absolutist.


You are not Caldari.

You do not look Caldari.

You do not act Caldari.

In much the same way that any people's or individuals who have chosen to live under the dominance of a foreign government and cultural mileu are not, and will never be Caldari despite their affectations, pretensions or delusions to the contrary. If they do not agree with the State then they do not agree with the majority of Caldari and are nothing more than collaborators, traitors and those that have spat upon their heritage and history.

They are nothing more than the disassociated and are given the same options: rejoin the State or be ignored for abandoning duty, loyalty and tradition. As for the State being absolutist because of it? Hardly. They have the same options as any citizen, lead a productive life valuing work, service and tradition in the name of the State or continue in their lives of shame and disgrace as the shunned and outcast dogs that they are.

By your liberal ideology I suppose anyone in the Federation can get some tribal tattoos and call themselves Minmatar, read about the Ida and call themselves Intaki, or teach themselves Lirsautton cuisine and call themselves Jin-Mei then?

How quaint.

I say no, and irrespective of what such Federal citizens may call themselves or how they may pretend, they are not, and will never be Caldari for they have turned their backs on their people and the State they have created.


With an attitude like that, it's no wonder they'd prefer to not live in the state. With extremists like yourself abound in the State, it's a wonder more people haven't left it.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#52 - 2012-12-11 14:42:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Astera Zandraki wrote:

I say no, and irrespective of what such Federal citizens may call themselves or how they may pretend they are not, and will never be Caldari for they have turned their backs on their people and the State they have created.

They were never involved in the State. The never left it, it was created and they chose not to take part. I am well aware that I am not Caldari, I never claimed such. But I've heard of non-ethnic Minmatar being accepted into clans, I've heard of people marrying into Jin-Mei castes, you seems to have this monolithic perception of culture and ethnicity which is just incorrect, they are both mercurial.


The Tea Maker ceremony had one simple imperative: You are either Caldari and with the State, or you are a traitor to the people. Any who call themselves Caldari and remained in the Federation either then or now are still traitors to the people and have chosen to turn their backs on them.

They are no better than the criminals and traitors of today who turn their back on State and Corporation.

They are outcast and forgotten.

And no, culture and ethnicity are hard and defined concepts. This is why a true Caldari will never accept the flawed misconceptions and tenets of Federal liberalism for without the defining principles of culture and society as defined through the lens of a singular vision and destiny as one people then an individual becomes empty and devoid of worth.

Much like yourself.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#53 - 2012-12-11 14:47:27 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Oh yeah, and that whole supporting their enemy thing. That also might be a tiny factor.


Which enemy is that?

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Constantly Outraged Sebiestor
Gutter Press
#54 - 2012-12-11 14:47:53 UTC
People that associate with entities hostile to the Republic aren't Minmatar. Cartel or Ammatar or Holder's pet slave, doesn't matter. Claiming otherwise is simply dumb.

It is the same as being a Gurista, and claiming to be Caldari, or being a Blood Raider and claiming to be Amarr, or being a Sansha Slave and claiming to be human. It is a ludicrous claim, entirely without merit.
Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2012-12-11 14:52:50 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:

And no, culture and ethnicity are hard and defined concepts. This is why a true Caldari will never accept the flawed misconceptions and tenets of Federal liberalism for without the defining principles of culture and society as defined through the lens of a singular vision and destiny as one people then an individual becomes empty and devoid of worth.

Much like yourself.


You're saying that culture and ethnicity can never evolve and change? ehh... that is just.. well it is demonstrably incorrect.

I would also appreciate it if you did not devolve your arguments to weak ad hominem attacks, it does not aid debate and it certainly does not reflect well on you, your corporation or your cause
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#56 - 2012-12-11 15:03:35 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Astera Zandraki wrote:
Ms. Gesakarrin, I was wondering if you've ever been to any of the culturally Caldari nations in the Federation? Some of those are closer to the original Raata culture than even the State. So, before you talk about monolithic blocs and amalgamation, do some basic research.


The Caldari State is the only bastion of true Caldari culture and the only legitimate heir to the legacy and destiny of the Caldari people. I could care less whatever themeparks or Raata zoos those who call themselves Caldari construct in the Federation for they are nothing more than the descendents of collaborators and traitors to their people during the secession. If they choose to embrace their true heritage however, nothing prevents them from returning to their brothers and sisters in the State where they would be welcomed with open arms.



The Caldari State Minmatar Republic is the only bastion of true Caldari Matari culture and the only legitimate heir to the legacy and destiny of the Caldari Matari people. I could care less whatever themeparks or Raata zoos impersonator clans those who call themselves Caldari matari construct in the Federation for they are nothing more than the descendents of collaborators and traitors to their people during the secession rebellion. If they choose to embrace their true heritage however, nothing prevents them from returning to their brothers and sisters in the State Republic where they would be welcomed with open arms.

Oh look I can do it too!
And for the folks at home, have some statist mad-libs:

The [my government] is the only bastion of true [my heritage] culture and the only legitimate heir to the legacy and destiny of the [my people] people. I could care less whatever themeparks or [pejorative name for the communities of those descended from your bloodline living outside your nation] those who call themselves [my people] construct in the Federation for they are nothing more than the descendents of collaborators and traitors to their people during the [formative national event]. If they choose to embrace their true heritage however, nothing prevents them from returning to their brothers and sisters in the [my government] where they would be welcomed with open arms.

Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#57 - 2012-12-11 15:07:50 UTC
Astera Zandraki wrote:

You're saying that culture and ethnicity can never evolve and change? ehh... that is just.. well it is demonstrably incorrect.

I would also appreciate it if you did not devolve your arguments to weak ad hominem attacks, it does not aid debate and it certainly does not reflect well on you, your corporation or your cause


You should take it then in the spirit in which it was intended: a dismissal of your thoughts and opinions in lieu of anything of interest to counter further.

I have outlined the necessary points of my position, and frankly unless you have anything further to add then I shall be courteous and leave the last word to yourself in order to assuage, pander or engage in whatever libertine diatribe you may decide upon.

Frankly, I care not a jot, and I believe the current conversation best left to run its course along its original intent unless you wish to open a new communique.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
#58 - 2012-12-11 15:13:24 UTC
Alizabeth Vea wrote:

So, when a non-Minmatar creates the thread and you happen to agree with him, you fawn over him like a Gallente fangirl. Then, when I disagree with you're point of view, I get told to "sod off, because I'm not Matari."

Hypocrite.


Please point out where I'm fawning? Agreeing is one thing, but I'm not exactly on my knees or anything.

I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.

Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#59 - 2012-12-11 16:46:53 UTC
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:
Alizabeth Vea wrote:

So, when a non-Minmatar creates the thread and you happen to agree with him, you fawn over him like a Gallente fangirl. Then, when I disagree with you're point of view, I get told to "sod off, because I'm not Matari."

Hypocrite.


Please point out where I'm fawning? Agreeing is one thing, but I'm not exactly on my knees or anything.


Hyperbole.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
#60 - 2012-12-11 16:57:59 UTC
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:


Please point out where I'm fawning? Agreeing is one thing, but I'm not exactly on my knees or anything.


Hyperbole.


That's not a response. Please use full sentences. I'm sure being out in nullsec as part of GoonSwarm has done terrible things to your brain, but you've already demonstrated that you have some basic mastery over language.

I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.

Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever