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Why does nullsec care so much about what highsec is doing?

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Silath Slyver Silverpine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-12-11 12:10:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Silath Slyver Silverpine
I'm quite honestly curious. The passion (for lack of a kinder word) shown by those who live primarily in nullsec towards those who live primarily in highsec is rather mind boggling. I'll leave lowsec players out of it for the most part, since they generally seem more interested in improving their own lot, and less interested in degrading someone elses.

I can't see any way in which high sec activity affects null happenings in any significant way. At most, the profits of activities in highsec affect market prices, which can affect nullsec players. If anything, though, nullsec players should see this as a boon, if it keeps material, module, and ship prices down. Although even then, from what I understand, larger nullsec corps and alliances manufacture many of their own materials anyway.

And considering that highsec dwellers make up quite a bit of the EVE player base, getting them to leave the game doesn't seem like a brilliant idea, since a loss of paying customers would hurt CCP, which in turn hurts EVE - including nullsec.
So, I'm at a loss. Do nullsec players feel that highsec players are taking dev time and effort away from null/lowsec and putting it towards highsec? I'll grant you that may be true to a certain extent, although blaming players for wanting their AO to be buffed seems not only silly, but hypocritical.

It's fairly obvious that many (Though certainly not all) nullsec players enjoy trolling and generally pissing off highsec players. I get that, even if I don't share the same mindset. In a world in which you are largely powerless, it's nice to feel powerful in a game. (It's ok to admit it, we're all in the same boat when it comes to real life. There's nothing inherently wrong with it; you're not hurting anyone IRL.) The fact that someone mining alone in some random belt can cause such a strong emotion as hate in a totally random and unrelated stranger is . . . well . . . bizarre, to say the least.

So is that it, then? Surely there must be a better reason for what I can only describe as 'unwarranted hate' than the aspect of trolling. I often hear talk of how "Carebears are destroying EVE!", however there is never an accompanying validating statement. I also hear a lot of talk about how highsec players should be forced into playing in low/nullsec conditions, however this fails to consider that many EVE players would simply quit the game if this were attempted, again, harming CCP and subsequently EVE.
Considering that most new players (Not alts or re-subs) start out as highsec players, then gravitate towards PvP or stay as highsec players, the statement that "Carebears are destroying EVE!" seems patently false. I suppose if your ideal version of EVE is one in which only those who live in nullsec exist, then this is true. Such a version, however, does not seem very sustainable.

(TL;DR) In short: please explain to me how the actions of those in highsec negatively affects nullsec players, since the two are largely separate worlds, with the exception of markets and allocation of dev time? If the actions of highsec players don't in fact affect nullsec, then please explain why many nullsec players feels such strong emotions towards highsec players?
Mirime Nolwe
Mantra of Pain
#2 - 2012-12-11 12:21:58 UTC
Because this game works in a single shard world and everything that any player does will have impact in the game. Kinda simple actually..

Economy!
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#3 - 2012-12-11 12:22:35 UTC
I don't live, but only fight in null. I have nothing against HighSec people really.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#4 - 2012-12-11 12:25:05 UTC
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
I can't see any way in which high sec activity affects null happenings in any significant way


How come so many high sec baddies express the same ignorance of the game they're so involved in?
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#5 - 2012-12-11 12:25:39 UTC
Highsec players don't play the game the way nullsec players want them to...

Nullsec wants more mindless drones to "orbit and press F1" to fight their wars and boost their oversized egos...
Silath Slyver Silverpine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-12-11 12:26:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Silath Slyver Silverpine
Mirime Nolwe wrote:
Because this game works in a single shard world and everything that any player does will have impact in the game. Kinda simple actually..

Economy!


Could you please provide an example of a tangible, significant impact? I freely admit that the actions of highsec dwellers has some small affect on those in null in terms of the market, but I don't see how this affects things like wars and tec mining.

TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
I can't see any way in which high sec activity affects null happenings in any significant way


How come so many high sec baddies express the same ignorance of the game they're so involved in?


You're still failing to address my questions. Blindly throwing around accusations doesn't do anyone any good. If I am ignorant, please educate me, as I am willing to learn and satiate my curiosity.
Mirime Nolwe
Mantra of Pain
#7 - 2012-12-11 12:42:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirime Nolwe
First you need to understand the fact that we play a game in a single shard world (as i said), second you need to understand that this is a sandbox game with a 100% player economy.

Then, you will knowledge that the economy in the game need to have a balance, otherwise it will "Implode". Players in Highsec cant have 100% risk free game and cant make ISK as they want.

Even if you think otherwise, pure High Sec dwellers think only on themselves and that behavior (just let me be in my corner!) its selfish and wont help the game improve.

Economy needs balance and that wont be possible to accomplish with 100% free game for a big portion of this population.
Silath Slyver Silverpine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-12-11 12:50:09 UTC
Mirime Nolwe wrote:
First you need to understand the fact that we play a game in a single shard world (as i said), second you need to understand that this is a sandbox game with a 100% player economy.

Then, you will knowledge that the economy in the game need to have a balance, otherwise it will "Implode". Players in Highsec cant have 100% risk free game and cant make ISK as they want.

Even if you think otherwise, pure High Sec dwellers think only on themselves and that behavior (just let me be in my corner!) its selfish and wont help the game improve.

Economy needs balance and that wont be possible to accomplish with 100% free game for a big portion of this population.


1) I am quite aware EVE is a single shard world. The economy isn't entirely player driven (BPO's, for example, and various commodities) but for most practical purposes you are correect.

2)In a true free economy, supply and demand are the balancing forces. If you begin to introduce outside factors (CCP) to that economy, you generally make things worse. Highsec is certainly not '100% risk free' and where you get that idea, I do not know. Neither can highsec dwellers 'make as much ISK as they want.' In that sense, nullsec provides vastly more ISK than highsec.

3) Exactly what is wrong with being selfish? What seems selfish to me is a large number of nullsec players demanding that everyone play the game the way they want. I don't see very many highsec players demanding that everyone play as they do; merely that they be free to do what they do.

4) Lastly, I fail to see how the economy is so horribly unbalanced in favor of highsec at the moment, and even if it were, how this would affect nullsec in any significant way, given that many nullsec corporations and alliances are not only capable of pulling in hefty amounts of ISK, but are also capable of producing their own equipment.
Frying Doom
#9 - 2012-12-11 12:55:42 UTC
It all comes down to isk per hour

The Null sec people are worried that the Hi-sec ones are getting more isk/hour than them. While having a higher risk factor (frankly some do some don't depending on whether you are surrounded by a sea of blues or not)

But if you cut through all the drivel it comes down to isk per hour.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Pretty GuyYeah
#10 - 2012-12-11 12:58:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Pretty GuyYeah
Because it is utterly boring to sit in a bubble at a gate and hope to get a kill once every six hours. They eventually move into high sec and try to greif best they can. While doing this, they tell you how boring your life is in high sec and how much fun they have at the gate camps in null.

Post with your main.

A legend walks among us, a genius so significant he so dares to degrade himself as camouflage when you dispute.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-12-11 13:05:52 UTC
Its that itch people in null sec get when they see a neutral in system... puts them on edge. In high sec there are neutrals everywhere and they dont understand.

Also low end materials, its hard(ish) to get them in null sec so they're normally shipped in from hi-sec

No Worries
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-12-11 13:07:11 UTC
Maybe null-sec dwellers care about high-sec because that's where they have the majority of their alts and earn most of their personal income?

.
Randolph Rothstein
whatever corp.
#13 - 2012-12-11 13:11:33 UTC
some people dont like when others have fun in a different way

its the same in every game i have ever played,the most frequent line i read is "dont do X,do Y because its more fun" - ofc the missing part is "its more fun for me so it should be more fun for you too or else..."

why an evenoob like me posts in this thread? coz im mining in highsec and have nothing better to do Big smile
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#14 - 2012-12-11 13:24:25 UTC
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
I'm quite honestly curious. The passion (for lack of a kinder word) shown by those who live primarily in nullsec towards those who live primarily in highsec is rather mind boggling. I'll leave lowsec players out of it for the most part, since they generally seem more interested in improving their own lot, and less interested in degrading someone elses.

I can't see any way in which high sec activity affects null happenings in any significant way. At most, the profits of activities in highsec affect market prices, which can affect nullsec players. If anything, though, nullsec players should see this as a boon, if it keeps material, module, and ship prices down. Although even then, from what I understand, larger nullsec corps and alliances manufacture many of their own materials anyway.

And considering that highsec dwellers make up quite a bit of the EVE player base, getting them to leave the game doesn't seem like a brilliant idea, since a loss of paying customers would hurt CCP, which in turn hurts EVE - including nullsec.
So, I'm at a loss. Do nullsec players feel that highsec players are taking dev time and effort away from null/lowsec and putting it towards highsec? I'll grant you that may be true to a certain extent, although blaming players for wanting their AO to be buffed seems not only silly, but hypocritical.

It's fairly obvious that many (Though certainly not all) nullsec players enjoy trolling and generally pissing off highsec players. I get that, even if I don't share the same mindset. In a world in which you are largely powerless, it's nice to feel powerful in a game. (It's ok to admit it, we're all in the same boat when it comes to real life. There's nothing inherently wrong with it; you're not hurting anyone IRL.) The fact that someone mining alone in some random belt can cause such a strong emotion as hate in a totally random and unrelated stranger is . . . well . . . bizarre, to say the least.

So is that it, then? Surely there must be a better reason for what I can only describe as 'unwarranted hate' than the aspect of trolling. I often hear talk of how "Carebears are destroying EVE!", however there is never an accompanying validating statement. I also hear a lot of talk about how highsec players should be forced into playing in low/nullsec conditions, however this fails to consider that many EVE players would simply quit the game if this were attempted, again, harming CCP and subsequently EVE.
Considering that most new players (Not alts or re-subs) start out as highsec players, then gravitate towards PvP or stay as highsec players, the statement that "Carebears are destroying EVE!" seems patently false. I suppose if your ideal version of EVE is one in which only those who live in nullsec exist, then this is true. Such a version, however, does not seem very sustainable.

(TL;DR) In short: please explain to me how the actions of those in highsec negatively affects nullsec players, since the two are largely separate worlds, with the exception of markets and allocation of dev time? If the actions of highsec players don't in fact affect nullsec, then please explain why many nullsec players feels such strong emotions towards highsec players?


This is an example of the bad logic coming out of high sec people, and the main reason why many of us dislike them. It amounts to another "why won;t you leave us alone" post.

You want to be left alone, log off.

Most of those "high sec people" are "single player game people in a multiplayer game" solo types that don't care about anything (like voting for the csm lol), even though the whole game is one complex organism with lots of moving parts. EVERYTHING everyone does just about affects everyone else, and people who have ventured out from under CONCORD's skirts know this.

So no, we won't leave you alone, CCP won't trammel-shard the servers to keep you away from us, you have more than enough tools like safeties and CONCORD to keep you "safe" in a game with no safety. And Yes, we will continue to point out to CCP and all that the risk/reward balances of the game are off, and that being able to sit in the most protected space and (as an individual shotin red Xs) still make as much isk as you could in the most dangerous space is wrong.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#15 - 2012-12-11 13:27:45 UTC
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
Mirime Nolwe wrote:
Because this game works in a single shard world and everything that any player does will have impact in the game. Kinda simple actually..

Economy!


Could you please provide an example of a tangible, significant impact? I freely admit that the actions of highsec dwellers has some small affect on those in null in terms of the market, but I don't see how this affects things like wars and tec mining.

TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
I can't see any way in which high sec activity affects null happenings in any significant way


How come so many high sec baddies express the same ignorance of the game they're so involved in?


You're still failing to address my questions. Blindly throwing around accusations doesn't do anyone any good. If I am ignorant, please educate me, as I am willing to learn and satiate my curiosity.


I didn't address them because they're based on an massively flawed statement. Maybe when you ask things that aren't all underpinned by a fundamental ignorance of the game dynamics then I'll respond
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-12-11 13:29:10 UTC
Maybe because some feel that highsec and nullsec shouldn't be separated areas.

Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime.
HVAC Repairman
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2012-12-11 13:35:55 UTC  |  Edited by: HVAC Repairman
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
I'm quite honestly curious. The passion (for lack of a kinder word) shown by those who live primarily in nullsec towards those who live primarily in highsec is rather mind boggling. I'll leave lowsec players out of it for the most part, since they generally seem more interested in improving their own lot, and less interested in degrading someone elses.

I can't see any way in which high sec activity affects null happenings in any significant way. At most, the profits of activities in highsec affect market prices, which can affect nullsec players. If anything, though, nullsec players should see this as a boon, if it keeps material, module, and ship prices down. Although even then, from what I understand, larger nullsec corps and alliances manufacture many of their own materials anyway.

And considering that highsec dwellers make up quite a bit of the EVE player base, getting them to leave the game doesn't seem like a brilliant idea, since a loss of paying customers would hurt CCP, which in turn hurts EVE - including nullsec.
So, I'm at a loss. Do nullsec players feel that highsec players are taking dev time and effort away from null/lowsec and putting it towards highsec? I'll grant you that may be true to a certain extent, although blaming players for wanting their AO to be buffed seems not only silly, but hypocritical.

It's fairly obvious that many (Though certainly not all) nullsec players enjoy trolling and generally pissing off highsec players. I get that, even if I don't share the same mindset. In a world in which you are largely powerless, it's nice to feel powerful in a game. (It's ok to admit it, we're all in the same boat when it comes to real life. There's nothing inherently wrong with it; you're not hurting anyone IRL.) The fact that someone mining alone in some random belt can cause such a strong emotion as hate in a totally random and unrelated stranger is . . . well . . . bizarre, to say the least.

So is that it, then? Surely there must be a better reason for what I can only describe as 'unwarranted hate' than the aspect of trolling. I often hear talk of how "Carebears are destroying EVE!", however there is never an accompanying validating statement. I also hear a lot of talk about how highsec players should be forced into playing in low/nullsec conditions, however this fails to consider that many EVE players would simply quit the game if this were attempted, again, harming CCP and subsequently EVE.
Considering that most new players (Not alts or re-subs) start out as highsec players, then gravitate towards PvP or stay as highsec players, the statement that "Carebears are destroying EVE!" seems patently false. I suppose if your ideal version of EVE is one in which only those who live in nullsec exist, then this is true. Such a version, however, does not seem very sustainable.

(TL;DR) In short: please explain to me how the actions of those in highsec negatively affects nullsec players, since the two are largely separate worlds, with the exception of markets and allocation of dev time? If the actions of highsec players don't in fact affect nullsec, then please explain why many nullsec players feels such strong emotions towards highsec players?

Hisec players on average (not every case, but on average) have little to no understanding of the big picture, only care about isk/hour, do not believe in risk vs. reward, cry about everything they do not like, make the most god awful game suggestions, boggle down the petition system with the most inane drivel, complain incessantly about representation on the CSM, make the most god awful posts, are nearly universally incapable of deductive reasoning, start the most ridiculous tinfoil conspiracy theories, believe that suicide gankers should be banned for griefing, want hisec to be completely safe, and generally want to see EVE die in the same way that Ultima Online did.

I don't begrudge people who play the game in the style they prefer, I begrudge people who don't want other players to be able to play theirs.

Follow me on twitter
Silath Slyver Silverpine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-12-11 13:36:49 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


This is an example of the bad logic coming out of high sec people, and the main reason why many of us dislike them. It amounts to another "why won;t you leave us alone" post.

You want to be left alone, log off.

Most of those "high sec people" are "single player game people in a multiplayer game" solo types that don't care about anything (like voting for the csm lol), even though the whole game is one complex organism with lots of moving parts. EVERYTHING everyone does just about affects everyone else, and people who have ventured out from under CONCORD's skirts know this.

So no, we won't leave you alone, CCP won't trammel-shard the servers to keep you away from us, you have more than enough tools like safeties and CONCORD to keep you "safe" in a game with no safety. And Yes, we will continue to point out to CCP and all that the risk/reward balances of the game are off, and that being able to sit in the most protected space and (as an individual shotin red Xs) still make as much isk as you could in the most dangerous space is wrong.


First, let me thank you for at least attempting an intelligent and decent response. It is appreciated.

Now the 'However . . .'
So simply because we enjoy playing the game in a different manner than you, we should not play it at all? If my post was 'bad logic', I can't imagine how one might begin to describe yours.
Personally, I've never asked that CCP make highsec safer. I enjoy the fact I can be and sometimes am blown up in highsec, it's one of the reasons I play EVE.
As far as risk/reward being off, I agree, but this applies to nullsec as well in some cases. I don't really consider that a particularly valid argument.

In the end, your post reminds me of a sort of gradeschool mentality.
Kid quietly sitting in the corner of the playground, alone, minding his own business. A group of kids sees him and wonders why he's not participating. "Man, what a loser!" one of the kids in the group declares, prompting them to go and harass the loner.
He wasn't affecting them in any way, shape, or form; but his preference for being alone to being in a group is cause enough for him to be singled out and harassed.
Judging from your post, the two scenarios seem eerily familiar.
Bump Truck
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-12-11 13:38:21 UTC


Firstly I agree with you that anger and hatred are overreactions to anything that happens in EVE, we're actually all very similar people enjoying the same game, sometimes we should act more like it.

Secondly let me try and explain what I understand (apologies for ignorance) about the current state of EVE.

A lot of null players like to see the game as a glorious space opera (myself included), where industrialists drag ore out of asteroids and build all kinds of ships and equipment, then diplomats and spies work to keep your group alive in the crazy sea of shifting alliances and backstabbing. When this breaks down, war!

You rally your buddies and fight, to the death, for your right to live in this intricate, beautiful and savage galaxy.


So the "nullsec is safe because of the sea of blues" isn't quite true, you need that many buddies to live, to breathe. It shows how safe highsec is that you don't need a gang to run with.


And then there is this other area, this other game, Highsec. And in Highsec people are protected from this reality by the all powerful concord. And they make stuff. They have VAST amounts of ore and HUMONGOUS quatities of manfucaturing slots and ELITE protection, so they can churn out industrial goods at an insane rate, dragging the prices right through the floor.

(In one of my previous threads and industrialist said they sold t1 frigs at a loss just to make money on the fittings, that's how low the price is).


Moreover you would think the null blocks wouldn't care, they would just get on with their thing and leave Highsec alone, but again, apparently (I can't prove this), there aren't enough manufacturing slots in all of Deklein to provide ammo for a single coalition sized fleet.

Which means anyone who lives in Null is slaved to the Highsec industrialists. Null economies are like African civil wars, they export any valuable natural resources they have and import nearly all of their finished goods.

This is how HighSec affects Null, directly and massively every day.


I think a lot of Null players would like to see a big industry buff in Null, the ability to prodcuce enough ore and thereby ships and fittings to live independently from HighSec. Right now, this isn't possible.


Overall, I think, what draws players to the game is the crazy space opera side of it, not the missions / mining / trading of HighSec.

And I think that's why some Null players are angry that they can't just be left alone to play a cool game, they MUST deal with HighSec every day.

For further reading try these,

A Vision For Highsec

Creation and Destruction

Destroying the Shipyards

Addressing the Tritanium Problem

(and yes, themittani is a goon mouthpiece, so don't swallow what they say without considering it).
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#20 - 2012-12-11 13:42:33 UTC
The interest is mainly a balance reason, excluding the usual mouthbreathers from both sides who come to every thread discussing this. Character movement is fluid in EVE and everything is related, so the balance is always pushing characters to certain activities and areas of space. It just makes more sense to do certain things in certain ways and places. What the sensible ones are asking is that CCP change that balance in a way, that some things make the most sense to do in nullsec.

For example industry. Currently it just makes sense to produce as much as possible in highsec. The whole design of the system favors it and doing it anywhere else is suboptimal and inconvenient. Since we have a common market, that means you're at a disadvantage. You can do it if your needs demand it, but in most cases you're going to import as much as possible in null. To change this nullsec industry facilitites and POSes will need a major revamp and highsec will need a nerf. Until that is done, the industrial side of nullsec will remain largely useless in the overall scheme. If you could create a thriving industry base there, it would likely increase demand and activity for other professions too.

ISK generation has different issues. While you can earn a ton in null, it has different problems. Mainly that the income isn't generated at the player level and that it's limited in supply. What this means is it can be very hard to generate an income as an average grunt in null, since the activities aimed at fattening your personal wallet are limited. They simply can't feed everyone unlike mission running can. This leads to an odd thing, where players wanting to play in null are forced to earn their daily bread grinding ISK in highsec. Changing this here doesn't mean highsec has to be nerfed, but it does mean, that in general where people play and spend their time is closely tied to the income making balance between the different areas. There are very few pure nullsec players.
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