These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[I-RED] Serpentis Update in Syndicate

Author
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#21 - 2012-12-10 18:15:29 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Cool. Now glass Serpentis Prime and everyone on it and you'll REALLY earn my respect.


Please do yourself a favour and stop talking about glassing planets like it is ever a desirable outcome to anything, ever.


I only talked about doing that to one planet, Serpentis Prime, in retaliation for Evaloun.


It's still not a desirable outcome.
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-12-10 18:21:33 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Cool. Now glass Serpentis Prime and everyone on it and you'll REALLY earn my respect.


Please do yourself a favour and stop talking about glassing planets like it is ever a desirable outcome to anything, ever.


I only talked about doing that to one planet, Serpentis Prime, in retaliation for Evaloun.


It's still not a desirable outcome.


Yes, killing people means that Sansha can't kidnap them and make them his slaves. Got to keep the biomass banks full, right Thessalonia?


Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.

Anslo
Scope Works
#23 - 2012-12-10 18:23:52 UTC
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Cool. Now glass Serpentis Prime and everyone on it and you'll REALLY earn my respect.


Please do yourself a favour and stop talking about glassing planets like it is ever a desirable outcome to anything, ever.


I only talked about doing that to one planet, Serpentis Prime, in retaliation for Evaloun.


It's still not a desirable outcome.


Yes, killing people means that Sansha can't kidnap them and make them his slaves. Got to keep the biomass banks full, right Thessalonia?




Actually he meant that he doesn't approve of any loss of life, whether it be Sansha potentials or not. He isn't saying he wants to harvest them. Tiberious is actually against wonton destruction of life en masse from what I know of him.

So uh...sod off.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#24 - 2012-12-10 18:34:19 UTC
You would be surprised at how little interest I have in biomass these days, as an engineer.

Here's my reasoning, sans moral pleas so as to better slot into the capsuleer mentality.

Wars, historically, have tended to work upon the concept of escalations. The famous phrase "they send one of yours to the hospital? You send one of theirs to the morgue" fits quite well for this. These escalations are not unreversable, and history is also full of events where presented with the option to take an eye for an eye, the offended party has instead taken a lesser, but still worthwhile step.

The Serpentis have elites and non-elites, same as anyone else. On the planets controlled by serpentis, there are many human beings who worth under the Serpentis, technically count as employees of the Serpentis, and yet had absolutely no say in, or knowledge of, the events that took place above Rilnais.

To take a few ships for purposes of intelligence gathering? Fine. To kill the leaders who planned the assaults? Sure. Hell, if you are of a particularly retributive mindset, an argument could be made that the leaders who planned the attack need to suffer rather than just be removed.

But to glass an entire planet because of the actions of those elites? Unacceptable. Those people, given the option of a different way, are entirely likely to turn their back on their Serpentis masters, and so glassing them along with the planet is needless, and wasteful.
Rodtrik
Aphex Industries
#25 - 2012-12-10 18:43:44 UTC
Though it would send a powerful message...

The offending party claimed that the attack was also to send a message that no one was to cross the Serpentis. This seemed to also implicate (or attempted to) governmental organizations that they were not to cross the Serpentis.

While mass destruction is never a desirable outcome, I would say it is in this case. Take a city? Take a planet. Remind the criminals of their place.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#26 - 2012-12-10 18:53:38 UTC
Rodtrik wrote:
Though it would send a powerful message...

The offending party claimed that the attack was also to send a message that no one was to cross the Serpentis. This seemed to also implicate (or attempted to) governmental organizations that they were not to cross the Serpentis.

While mass destruction is never a desirable outcome, I would say it is in this case. Take a city? Take a planet. Remind the criminals of their place.


You're assuming that the criminal, in this case, cares more about the people under their command then themselves. If you take a planet, it will be recorded merely as a financial loss.

However, since the federation considers Rilnais to be more than a financial loss, the simple arithmetic of the matter is that the Serpentis will have come out ahead in such an exchange. They will be temporarily set back, whereas the federation will have failed in one of its basic duties.

In short, traditional power dynamics fails to encompass the mindset of the non-state actor. Catch the heads. Punish the heads. Leave the civilians alone.
Per Bastet
B.O.O.M
#27 - 2012-12-10 19:23:07 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Cool. Now glass Serpentis Prime and everyone on it and you'll REALLY earn my respect.



Have you ever seen the results of what a planet that has been Glassed looks like? I would suggest that you take the time to look at some of them. And the Loss of many innocent lives involved in the process.

By jumping to glassing a world because their leaders are evil you place your self in the same shoes as those that you fight. If you are going to be an Anti Mining Bumper, then you need to be a better person.

Comments like this make me strongly consider throwing my alliance's support behind the bumpers just to spite you Anslo.

"Whether the paranoid conspiracy theory community has had a separate trial process and decided other crazy batshit insane garbage was true I can't attest to as I don't subscribe to that mailing list and instead deal in the realm of fact."  - CCP Sreegs, 2013

Anslo
Scope Works
#28 - 2012-12-10 19:31:57 UTC
Per Bastet wrote:
Comments like this make me strongly consider throwing my alliance's support behind the bumpers just to spite you Anslo.


If you want to join them just to spite me instead of protecting yourself and your colleagues right to mine, you got bigger issues than me (and that's saying a lot).

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#29 - 2012-12-10 19:40:37 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Per Bastet wrote:
Comments like this make me strongly consider throwing my alliance's support behind the bumpers just to spite you Anslo.


If you want to join them just to spite me instead of protecting yourself and your colleagues right to mine, you got bigger issues than me (and that's saying a lot).


Consider that the bumped miner suffers no harm other than a little lost productivity and some hurt feelings, and I begin to truly question the mental state of someone who believes with all his heart that these people must be protected and yet wants to see a planet full of potentially innocent people nuked from orbit simply because their leaders are dicks.
Misha M'Liena
Rui Freelance Mining
#30 - 2012-12-10 19:47:07 UTC
Congrats to I-Red to a job well done.

Not as innocent as she appears.™  

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#31 - 2012-12-10 22:16:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Scherezad
'Glassing' (what a horribly clinical term) a planet for the sake of violent leadership? Never have the Gallente strayed so far down the depths of moral turpitude, even in the lowest of their days, in bombing the cities of the Caldari. The Gallente have improved since that point, so I have been lead to believe, but your casual calls for genocide make me wonder if this is true.

May you find restraint for these violent instincts. You may have spoken lightly, but be careful - enough people voicing a call for the casual extirpation of a planet will start the mob's cries, and in your Federation, this is impetus enough for disaster.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#32 - 2012-12-11 10:21:13 UTC
Rodtrik wrote:
Though it would send a powerful message...

The offending party claimed that the attack was also to send a message that no one was to cross the Serpentis. This seemed to also implicate (or attempted to) governmental organizations that they were not to cross the Serpentis.

While mass destruction is never a desirable outcome, I would say it is in this case. Take a city? Take a planet. Remind the criminals of their place.


The point is that mass destruction doesn't solve problems unless you are in a position to make it complete. The last time the Gallente people seriously contemplated this solution to a problem it resulted in a civil war in the Federation, a long and expensive conflict and the creation of a hostile super-power right next door to Federation space.

Counter productive.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Rodtrik
Aphex Industries
#33 - 2012-12-11 14:01:23 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Rodtrik wrote:
Though it would send a powerful message...

The offending party claimed that the attack was also to send a message that no one was to cross the Serpentis. This seemed to also implicate (or attempted to) governmental organizations that they were not to cross the Serpentis.

While mass destruction is never a desirable outcome, I would say it is in this case. Take a city? Take a planet. Remind the criminals of their place.


The point is that mass destruction doesn't solve problems unless you are in a position to make it complete. The last time the Gallente people seriously contemplated this solution to a problem it resulted in a civil war in the Federation, a long and expensive conflict and the creation of a hostile super-power right next door to Federation space.

Counter productive.


What we Gallente did to the Caldari was absolutely uncalled for. We attempted to force ways onto a relatively non-belligerent society. For that, we are sorry.

But the Serpentis acted aggressively initially and wiped out an entire city for a few plants. There is a key difference between the mistake the Gallente made in attacking the Caldari that caused a civil war, and teaching a few thugs about their place on the interstellar hierarchy by cleaning house, so to speak.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#34 - 2012-12-11 14:05:52 UTC
Rodtrik wrote:


What we Gallente did to the Caldari was absolutely uncalled for. We attempted to force ways onto a relatively non-belligerent society. For that, we are sorry.

But the Serpentis acted aggressively initially and wiped out an entire city for a few plants. There is a key difference between the mistake the Gallente made in attacking the Caldari that caused a civil war, and teaching a few thugs about their place on the interstellar hierarchy by cleaning house, so to speak.


And so the cycle continues, until someone steps in to stop it.
Anja Suorsa
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-12-11 17:01:05 UTC
Rodtrik wrote:


What we Gallente did to the Caldari was absolutely uncalled for. We attempted to force ways onto a relatively non-belligerent society. For that, we are sorry.

But the Serpentis acted aggressively initially and wiped out an entire city for a few plants. There is a key difference between the mistake the Gallente made in attacking the Caldari that caused a civil war, and teaching a few thugs about their place on the interstellar hierarchy by cleaning house, so to speak.


As distasteful as I find it to agree with a supporter of Nation, I have to agree with Mr Thessalonia in this instance. I'm sure your ancestors thought they were teaching a few thugs about their place on the interstellar hierarchy when they decided to blockade and bombard Caldari Prime.

Back to the topic at hand though, My personal congratulations to I-RED on work well done.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#36 - 2012-12-11 17:20:44 UTC
On this, I think we don't need the qualification. One thing that Nation supporters and supporters of the Caldari state have in common is that we both have within our immediately accessable memories the horrors of planetary bombardment.

I'd advise those who think it is a wise answer to the Serpentis Problem to experience one themselves before they go advocating death from orbit.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-12-11 17:36:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
To which I'd add simply this:

Do it, and lose whatever moral high ground you think you have. Permanently.

Once can, conceivably, be forgiven as a temporary lapse, and we have heard time and again "oh the Federation isn't like that now". We've been assured again and again that such mindlessly, murderously over-the-top retaliation is no longer a part of the Federation's cultural makeup, and I'm personally prepared to concede that maybe that's the case. That is trust which should be offered.

Calls for it to happen again, now? Shocking, but so long as the majority continue to balk at the idea, then we're alright.

If it ever did get to that point, if the Federation actually did what's being advocated here, and boiled a Serpentis world to bedrock? Then speaking as a would-be interstellar peacemaker and bridge-builder, the Federation would have forever forfeited the right to call itself "civilisation" and every negative thing that has ever been said about it would be vindicated.

Fortunately I suspect that the people making the decisions are well aware of just how politically disastrous it would be. I hope they're aware of the morality too, but I'm quite certain that political expediency is the more powerful motivator.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Rodtrik
Aphex Industries
#38 - 2012-12-11 18:24:12 UTC
So then what would you moral paragons of justice suggest as retaliation against the Serpentis? Threaten them with words? Waggle our fingers?

Someone suggested going after the leaders specifically. Do you think more leaders will not simply fill the vacuum and facilitate another raid against a city? Or perhaps an entire planet?

When do we have the right to strike back? Do we need to wait for one of our own worlds to be destroyed? Perhaps a station cracked from within by some criminal organization as a reminder that we are to kowtow to them or else. This isn't a sovereign nation we're talking about. It's a criminal organization.

Retribution must be delivered in some form, swiftly, and ruthlessly.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#39 - 2012-12-11 18:29:16 UTC
If you punish the proper elites properly, then those who take their place are much less likely to make the same mistake as the previously installed leadership.

In short, Captain, you can be ruthless without being a monster yourself.
Anslo
Scope Works
#40 - 2012-12-11 18:34:32 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
If you punish the proper elites properly, then those who take their place are much less likely to make the same mistake as the previously installed leadership.

In short, Captain, you can be ruthless without being a monster yourself.


To be honest, he has a point. Serpentis aren't stupid enough to make the same mistake again if they see the **** others got for it. Even their most brazen leaders wouldn't pull a stunt like that if they saw the guy before him get the Anvent Eturrer treatment...

Eh, the more I think about it, the less acceptable wiping a planet out looks...

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]