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Can someone from CCP please explain how this new AI is "smarter"/better
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amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-12-09 19:17:37 UTC
Just attempted to run Angel's Forsaken Hub. Previous procedure would be to warp to 70km with navy raven, draw aggro, warp in logi Dominix and shoot rats. Rinse, repeat.

Attempted that procedure now, the Dominix draws all aggro when it warps in. This is prior to doing any repping, deploying any drones, or doing anything hostile. All rats stopped aggroing the ship shooting them and aggroed a non-aggressive ship.

Attempted to reverse the procedure and warp the Dominix in first, then the Raven figuring maybe they just aggro whatever comes in second. Again, the rats will not stop aggroing the Dominix no matter how much damage the Raven is doing even when the Domi is sitting there completely passive doing nothing.

If you can explain to me how this is smarter/better than before I'll stop complaining. Looks like you saved me some money though, since I can now desub my alt.

Nice work pushing through a change that nobody wanted in the face of nothing but criticism of it by those who tested it. Good show!
Hinsty David
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-12-09 19:25:40 UTC
You're upset the rats don't just let you tank them while your repper sits there unmolested? Sounds like they're pretty smart to me.
Kagumichan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2012-12-09 19:32:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagumichan
What Hinsty said. An FC would call to blap a logi first as with that off the field destroying all other ships would be much easier, with it still there it'd be a struggle and the fight could be lost.
This is what the AI is now doing, it recognises targets and assesses what poses the greatest threat to long term survival, and then proceeds to take out the most important ships first, therefore increasing it's chance of victory.

So yes, because breaking your logi domi would have left your navy raven in a vunerable position, it is smarter.
amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-12-09 19:36:13 UTC  |  Edited by: amurder Hakomairos
You are missing what I'm saying. The NPCs are aggroing the Dominix while the Dominix is NOT repping and NOT attacking. How do the NPCs recognize a completely passive battleship as more of a threat than one that is shooting them? Are they doing a ship scan from 80km to see what modules it has fit?
stoicfaux
#5 - 2012-12-09 19:56:40 UTC
amurder Hakomairos wrote:
You are missing what I'm saying. The NPCs are aggroing the Dominix while the Dominix is NOT repping and NOT attacking. How do the NPCs recognize a completely passive battleship as more of a threat than one that is shooting them? Are they doing a ship scan from 80km to see what modules it has fit?

The NPCs are learning to recognize tactics. They've seen the "first ship in draws aggro" trick so often that they finally realized it's a good idea shoot the second ship immediately.

Next time reverse the order of warp in, because, you know, you're smarter than the NPCs.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Amanda Haley
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-12-09 19:57:36 UTC
amurder Hakomairos wrote:
You are missing what I'm saying. The NPCs are aggroing the Dominix while the Dominix is NOT repping and NOT attacking. How do the NPCs recognize a completely passive battleship as more of a threat than one that is shooting them? Are they doing a ship scan from 80km to see what modules it has fit?


Rats are still stupid. Only thing they are more annoying. They have no sense in terms of who produces danger. CCP real goal is to decrease load of servers and filter some of the subs who are pissed the most
Hinsty David
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-12-09 20:06:30 UTC
So either the rats know the Domi is the repper and will target it constantly or they are just switching targets more randomly and it just seems it's picking the Domi.

Either way, better than "shoot the first one thing you see forever" AI the rats had.
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#8 - 2012-12-09 20:06:40 UTC
amurder Hakomairos wrote:
You are missing what I'm saying. The NPCs are aggroing the Dominix while the Dominix is NOT repping and NOT attacking. How do the NPCs recognize a completely passive battleship as more of a threat than one that is shooting them? Are they doing a ship scan from 80km to see what modules it has fit?


Lol man, don't feed those nullbear trolls.
I could understand NPCs aggro on a passive ship, well on some level of stupidity.
What I can't understand is their aggro on salvager drones. It made me lol very hard.
Salvager Drones?! A threat?! This is just ridiculous,

Whatever.
amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-12-09 20:13:13 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
amurder Hakomairos wrote:
You are missing what I'm saying. The NPCs are aggroing the Dominix while the Dominix is NOT repping and NOT attacking. How do the NPCs recognize a completely passive battleship as more of a threat than one that is shooting them? Are they doing a ship scan from 80km to see what modules it has fit?

The NPCs are learning to recognize tactics. They've seen the "first ship in draws aggro" trick so often that they finally realized it's a good idea shoot the second ship immediately.

Next time reverse the order of warp in, because, you know, you're smarter than the NPCs.




Tried the reverse order. They still aggroed the Domi. They wouldn't aggro the Raven even with it shooting them and the Domi sitting there doing nothing.
amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-12-09 20:15:47 UTC
Hinsty David wrote:
So either the rats know the Domi is the repper and will target it constantly or they are just switching targets more randomly and it just seems it's picking the Domi.

Either way, better than "shoot the first one thing you see forever" AI the rats had.



I disagree, this is the same level of bad/stupid, its just different bad/stupid so not really an improvement. If say, half or a third of the room aggroed the Domi I would agree. But full aggro switch ignoring a ship that is actually shooting them?
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#11 - 2012-12-09 20:18:25 UTC
amurder Hakomairos wrote:
Hinsty David wrote:
So either the rats know the Domi is the repper and will target it constantly or they are just switching targets more randomly and it just seems it's picking the Domi.

Either way, better than "shoot the first one thing you see forever" AI the rats had.



I disagree, this is the same level of bad/stupid, its just different bad/stupid so not really an improvement. If say, half or a third of the room aggroed the Domi I would agree. But full aggro switch ignoring a ship that is actually shooting them?



Wrong.
New AI level of stupidity is much higher then it was before.

Whatever.
amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-12-09 20:23:53 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:
amurder Hakomairos wrote:
Hinsty David wrote:
So either the rats know the Domi is the repper and will target it constantly or they are just switching targets more randomly and it just seems it's picking the Domi.

Either way, better than "shoot the first one thing you see forever" AI the rats had.



I disagree, this is the same level of bad/stupid, its just different bad/stupid so not really an improvement. If say, half or a third of the room aggroed the Domi I would agree. But full aggro switch ignoring a ship that is actually shooting them?



Wrong.
New AI level of stupidity is much higher then it was before.


Agree 100%

The only thing more stupid was the decision to deploy it
Lugalzagezi666
#13 - 2012-12-09 20:28:13 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:
What I can't understand is their aggro on salvager drones. It made me lol very hard.
Salvager Drones?! A threat?! This is just ridiculous,


Haha, this. I laughed too when I found out, we now have new type of drones, that were made useless by the same patch that introduced them to game.Lol

I tried them in gone berserk mission that has only 2 frigs total - right when drones started salvaging, these 2 frigs suddenly went "must save wrecks" and poped all drones before they managed to get back to me with salvage.
Josefine Etrange
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-12-09 22:00:24 UTC
amurder Hakomairos wrote:

Tried the reverse order. They still aggroed the Domi. They wouldn't aggro the Raven even with it shooting them and the Domi sitting there doing nothing.


If they can break the tank of that domi, it is no wonder. They want that kill mail.
Auferre
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-12-10 04:24:02 UTC
Mission NPC AI now passes the Eve Turing test - it's just as likely to grief you as players are.
Turelus
Utassi Security
#16 - 2012-12-10 07:26:32 UTC
IIRC Don't NPCs with the better AI normally attempted to kill the weaker tank on the field? I'm sure someone has told me that in that past.

Though I did always wonder how they instantly knew what the worst tank was.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security