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Pulling the Plug on WiS

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Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#501 - 2012-12-09 10:15:13 UTC
I'd probably do the same, and i thought about this earlier when I read the post above. I pledged for one game I may never play just a month ago; I can't imagine I wouldn't do it for one I already do play. Seems a bit odd though.

I mean, at what point do we draw the line. We've got potential players paying for development of games, effectively providing the financing without any financial return on the investment, and well... that should be enough to point out right there. Players footing the bill for development.

You might say, well, we already do that, but that doesn't take into account that development takes time and usually an investment well before players ever see it, or even hear about it. Yet, here we are, (some of us), actually providing the initial financing for the game development itself, long before we'll see anything come of it.

What do we get? Well, my investment will supposedly get me a digital copy when development is finished, a base ship in game, and access to Beta if I want it as far as that other goes. Really, that's a pretty insignificant requirement for compensation on the part of the developer.

Right! Give us money, we'll make a game, you'll get a digital download or a 2 dollar disc + shipping, and then be required to sub after the first 30 days.. Awesome!! What?

..bit of a joke really, but I knew that going in and did it anyway.
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Anne-Louise Chasse
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#502 - 2012-12-09 10:19:35 UTC
Hikaru Kuroda wrote:
Kickstart Walk in Stations/Incarna and we'll get it this summer.


Why pay double? WiS has been talking for 6 years, these are millions and millions of money in subscriptions, and we got is a doll in a prison cell and they talk about making another FPS like DUST just inside EVE for exploration sites, when don't know.

I've been pledged to Star Citizen because they have the tools and an engine that already exist and work and have the knowledge and I think that they can give, CCP is giving all stuff that was broken and now they say that it will work but it is the same stuff.

I don't want to pay double for WiS, I will pay for another game that gives and don't runs in circles and repeats the same things that were make broken and now they are make right. Lol
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#503 - 2012-12-09 11:07:24 UTC
Anne-Louise Chasse wrote:
Hikaru Kuroda wrote:
Kickstart Walk in Stations/Incarna and we'll get it this summer.


Why pay double? WiS has been talking for 6 years, these are millions and millions of money in subscriptions, and we got is a doll in a prison cell and they talk about making another FPS like DUST just inside EVE for exploration sites, when don't know.

I've been pledged to Star Citizen because they have the tools and an engine that already exist and work and have the knowledge and I think that they can give, CCP is giving all stuff that was broken and now they say that it will work but it is the same stuff.

I don't want to pay double for WiS, I will pay for another game that gives and don't runs in circles and repeats the same things that were make broken and now they are make right. Lol


Well, actually, I would assume that if we pledged for WiS it would be developed, where currently a number of players are demanding other things because they to pay subscriptions. Also, if a crowd sourcing fund was created for WiS, I imagine it would take the place of the NEx with limited objections from the player base as a means of covering the cost of development.

No guarantees of course.

And then, you might consider that all those that pledge might get some limited edition asset as a result of that pledge. Sort of like going to fanfest, or buying a retail version of the game, or buying GTCs, or just for being here, subscribed, at the right time. Depending on your pledge, it might be a different special edition asset than someone else might receive for a different pledge.

Weird isn't it, though I'd expect that the asset would be made available after the development was complete and it was rolling out in an expansion. Would hope so actually, as they'd have time to consider it and maybe put some thought into what sort of assets might be made for this, either to complement the release of the new content or even something for FiS content.

Personally, I say why not.

..and besides that, don't expect game development to be without its bugs or flaws. That isn't really possible generally speaking; people make games, and people are far from perfect and shouldn't be expected to be. It's an unrealistic expectation.
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Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#504 - 2012-12-09 11:10:22 UTC
let's be quite honest here: the concept of Incarna, where you could socialize outside of the pod, having conference rooms, corp offices, war rooms, ability to build your own establishment, black market, and, perhaps much further ahead, some real action outside spaceships, was good. Making it integral part of the whole game, and having stuff outside of the pod affecting stuff in space was good.

Incarna as it was released, however, was just to feed the hubris from CCP's part, specially with the NEX store added on top. CCP promised us the universe, and they delivered us a tiny room and a clothing store. In result, and together with the new forum release failure (I still want my graphical signature CCP) we got angry at how 4-5 years of in-house development and several hundred working hours were condensed in just that tiny room. And so, we got angry at it. very angry. Angry because it felt useless. Angry because of 18 months, and in the end, angry because we warned CCP time and again, and they, blinded by the above mentioned hubris, thought they could get away with just that tiny room.
They didn't, and while it does show promise, it is better to shelve Incarna for now. Still too many open wounds, and don't forget what happened on the wake of it all. Don't forget that CCP fired 20% of their manpower after this. Incarnafail is still too fresh in everybody's memories, so better keep it on a shelf, waiting for better days.


However, truth to be told, the failure of Incarna did brought some revamped interest in getting **** done on this game, and while it was still a bumpy road, it has been a bit better ever since.


TL;DR: in hindsight, Incarna was released too bare-bones and severely lacking content. and people got mad at it. And people are still mad at it.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#505 - 2012-12-09 11:30:46 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
let's be quite honest here: the concept of Incarna, where you could socialize outside of the pod, having conference rooms, corp offices, war rooms, ability to build your own establishment, black market, and, perhaps much further ahead, some real action outside spaceships, was good. Making it integral part of the whole game, and having stuff outside of the pod affecting stuff in space was good.

Incarna as it was released, however, was just to feed the hubris from CCP's part, specially with the NEX store added on top. CCP promised us the universe, and they delivered us a tiny room and a clothing store. In result, and together with the new forum release failure (I still want my graphical signature CCP) we got angry at how 4-5 years of in-house development and several hundred working hours were condensed in just that tiny room. And so, we got angry at it. very angry. Angry because it felt useless. Angry because of 18 months, and in the end, angry because we warned CCP time and again, and they, blinded by the above mentioned hubris, thought they could get away with just that tiny room.
They didn't, and while it does show promise, it is better to shelve Incarna for now. Still too many open wounds, and don't forget what happened on the wake of it all. Don't forget that CCP fired 20% of their manpower after this. Incarnafail is still too fresh in everybody's memories, so better keep it on a shelf, waiting for better days.


However, truth to be told, the failure of Incarna did brought some revamped interest in getting **** done on this game, and while it was still a bumpy road, it has been a bit better ever since.


TL;DR: in hindsight, Incarna was released too bare-bones and severely lacking content. and people got mad at it. And people are still mad at it.


People being mad about it should really be ignored at this point. The immediate failure was corrected and the only thing left to do is to move forward and make something good out of it. Until CCP creates some quality content with it and proves the concept can live up to some of the expectations, it will be forever considered a failure and keep fostering anger. In addition some people will always remain angry towards it. People were angry because it was developed, because it wasn't developed fast enought, because it was developed in the wrong direction, because it's now on hold and for who knows how many other reasons. If they haven't gotten over it at this point, they're unlikely to ever do so.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#506 - 2012-12-09 11:39:36 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
People being mad about it should really be ignored at this point. The immediate failure was corrected and the only thing left to do is to move forward and make something good out of it. Until CCP creates some quality content with it and proves the concept can live up to some of the expectations, it will be forever considered a failure and keep fostering anger. In addition some people will always remain angry towards it. People were angry because it was developed, because it wasn't developed fast enought, because it was developed in the wrong direction, because it's now on hold and for who knows how many other reasons. If they haven't gotten over it at this point, they're unlikely to ever do so.


yeah true, people angry for the sake of being angry aren't the issue here. you can't always make everyone happy, altho, in hindsight, it was one of those rare occasions where everybody was angry.Lol

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Ghazu
#507 - 2012-12-09 12:12:28 UTC
Don't you people need something, like a plan of some sort or preview concept videos from CCP before you throw money at them via kickstarter? Star Citizen has one and it's a pretty good.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984

Mr Pragmatic
#508 - 2012-12-09 13:54:51 UTC
Ghazu wrote:
Don't you people need something, like a plan of some sort or preview concept videos from CCP before you throw money at them via kickstarter? Star Citizen has one and it's a pretty good.


Star citizen?! Bwahahah. no seriously. If eve did a kick started to upgrade WIS I think I would contribute some money,

Super cali hella yolo swaga dopeness.  -Yoloswaggins, in the fellowship of the bling.

Versuvius Marii
Browncoats of Persephone
#509 - 2012-12-09 15:16:19 UTC
Holy One wrote:
12m dollars on to bring us one room and a door ..

Biggest waste of RL-isk on a gaming development ever?

The Gaming MoD - retro to modern, console to MMO, I blog about it if it's a game and I'm interested in it. Yes, I play games other than Eve and I don't care if you think I'm wrong.

Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#510 - 2012-12-09 18:58:25 UTC
I've been following conversations about Star Citizen, and the thing I see mentioned most is that it's "more like wing command than eve"

Nah.
If that games releases, and does what the guy trying to make it says, it's going to be the only direct competetion EVE has.
I watched that guy talk for like an hour about making EVE online, with a single player component.
He was talking about the same basic economic, resource, and territory stuff that is in EVE, within the same kind of persistant enviroment.

Don't take that as "star citizen will kill EVE", or "star citizen will be great". For all I know the game will neve release.

However, if it does, and it works how he says he intends it to, it's going to be very much like EVE with twitch based piloting, and the ability to exit your ship and not just walk in a station, but on your ship.

And it could be boring as all hell.

But, if it's good and fun, then CCP could end up behind the curve in their goal of making a sci-fi game that's more than just spaceships.

I feel confident saying that there are many more people who want to play a space sci fi game that lets you get out of your ship and do stuff than there are that will play one that confines you to your ship, or in EVE's case a jail cell.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#511 - 2012-12-09 20:20:53 UTC
Hikaru Kuroda wrote:
Kickstart Walk in Stations/Incarna and we'll get it this summer.

Kickstarter me back my several gigs of featureless wasted client bloat.

And the money that's already gone down the supermassive black hole of RL ISK.

I bet investors are just lining up for this. Roll

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Kagumichan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#512 - 2012-12-09 20:22:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagumichan
I'm still hoping that CCP are really working on WiS content in secret, keeping it out of ear-shot of the players and will throw it in as a surprise at the same time they connect Dust to the TQ server. It'd make sense, if mercs can wander around in stations and whatever, how come we're confined to captains quarters? Plus with all the negativity Incarna caused, and how a lot of people use CQ as a running joke then mocking all the people that do like it and the character customiser, it would make sense to keep any content being developed for it quiet, so all the nay-sayers don't have something new to flame and troll.

On a side note, I'm a fan of WiS, and the character customiser. I change my character appearance once every few months and like to play about matching makeup, hairstyles, colours and tattoos with clothing and lighting to get good avatar pictures, and occassionally I switch on CQ so I can waltz around the room, sit and watch the t.v, stare at whatever ship is active as it slowly spins around in the distance. sure it doesn't actually do anything right now, but it's nice to know it's there, and to admire the scenery every once in a while.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#513 - 2012-12-09 20:29:42 UTC
Kagumichan wrote:
I'm still hoping that CCP are really working on WiS content in secret, keeping it out of ear-shot of the players and will throw it in as a surprise at the same time they connect Dust to the TQ server. It'd make sense, if mercs can wander around in stations and whatever, how come we're confined to captains quarters? Plus with all the negativity Incarna caused, and how a lot of people use CQ as a running joke then mocking all the people that do like it and the character customiser, it would make sense to keep any content being developed for it quiet, so all the nay-sayers don't have something new to flame and troll.

On a side note, I'm a fan of WiS, and the character customiser. I change my character appearance once every few months and like to play about matching makeup, hairstyles, colours and tattoos with clothing and lighting to get good avatar pictures, and occassionally I switch on CQ so I can waltz around the room, sit and watch the t.v, stare at whatever ship is active as it slowly spins around in the distance. sure it doesn't actually do anything right now, but it's nice to know it's there, and to admire the scenery every once in a while.

It's not just a running joke. It's just about 12 gigs of bloatware tying up my drive for absolutely no valid reason.

Remove it from the client as well as from the development planning schedule.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#514 - 2012-12-09 20:38:48 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

It's not just a running joke. It's just about 12 gigs of bloatware tying up my drive for absolutely no valid reason.

Remove it from the client as well as from the development planning schedule.

Consequence of what it is, not really what it isn't.

If it was something people could actually do something with, it would only be bloatware to those people who don't want to do it, and that's no different than someone liking one particular gameplay mechanic over another in the rest of EVE.

WiS wasn't intended to just be some afterthought, it's been the route they've planned on taking EVE for almost as long as EVE has been running.


Yes, it is bloatware, but so would a PoS that you could anchor to the moon and do nothing else with.

6 years of waiting to walk around a station, that's not really a small amount of time.
Imagine being shown visions of a super awesome spaceship for 6 years, getting a model you could spin around in a hangar, and then being told "nevermind for now, dunno when we'll get around to it either."

That's me with that CQ button.
My super awesome spaceship I've been waiting years for, and I can't undock it.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#515 - 2012-12-09 20:43:43 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

It's not just a running joke. It's just about 12 gigs of bloatware tying up my drive for absolutely no valid reason.

Remove it from the client as well as from the development planning schedule.

I thought a few gig stopped being alot of disk space last decade.

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Valkris Arkayne
Perkone
Caldari State
#516 - 2012-12-09 21:01:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkris Arkayne
The simple fact is, games have continued to expand and grow, always building off the failures and successes of what came before. EVE is easily the single best Space Ship game available, but it can't last forever on that accomplishment.

Just as Warcraft surpassed EverQuest and Quake replaced Doom, there are always developers who are working on the next step. While CCP tweaking missile graphics and improving nebulae is nice (and appreciated), that isn't enough to sustain a game forever without serious innovation. I'd rather have CCP get Avatar based gameplay out the door - better and FASTER - than Star Citizen, so EVE doesn't become a secondary product in an increasingly-crowded market space.
Korinne
The Partisan Brigade
#517 - 2012-12-09 21:21:06 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Just to answer a couple of points:

  • Team Avatar doesn't exist anymore. As per the thread linked earlier our prototype has been shelved for the time being. Please read both my post and the one from CCP Unifex for the full picture on what's happening with WIS development at the moment. The team members are off working on a whole bunch of stuff from the launcher, through to new game features.
  • WoD is definitely still in development and development is split off from EVE so that they can concentrate on their game and making it awesome.


Yea, it's plenty split off from Eve until Dust gets launched. They've been milking EVE for a good 3 years now, putting less and less effort and assets into development. They're gonna drop Dust, let it ride a year, then effectively pull the plug on Eve as far as development and interest goes. They'll keep milking it for a whle just like WoW but nobody will care except the sycophants that will play regardless.
sir meatball
Oh Bugga
League 0f Grumpy 0ld Farts
#518 - 2012-12-09 22:04:24 UTC
So far eve is the only decent space mmo . So if you hate it to bad nowhere to goTwisted
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
Feign Disorder
#519 - 2012-12-10 00:37:54 UTC
Valkris Arkayne wrote:
The simple fact is, games have continued to expand and grow, always building off the failures and successes of what came before. EVE is easily the single best Space Ship game available, but it can't last forever on that accomplishment.

Just as Warcraft surpassed EverQuest and Quake replaced Doom, there are always developers who are working on the next step. While CCP tweaking missile graphics and improving nebulae is nice (and appreciated), that isn't enough to sustain a game forever without serious innovation. I'd rather have CCP get Avatar based gameplay out the door - better and FASTER - than Star Citizen, so EVE doesn't become a secondary product in an increasingly-crowded market space.


I think ccp doesn't know how to compete. they will have to take some risks and put heavy investments into eve development or fall to new space mmos. I think they will fail since they have had a long and terrible track record with adding new content. i can't see how they could ever compete against companies who actually know that making the customers angry results in mass unsubs.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#520 - 2012-12-10 00:39:24 UTC
Mix fealing, if done correctly, WiS could be a good addiction to EvE/Dusk. But on the other hand, incarna fiasco almost killed EvE...

The Tears Must Flow