EVE General Discussion

You reply to my first non-question "not just a game (re)design matter", but not to the "players mindset one", which imo is the hard if not impossible bit to fix.
It's just hard - regardless of context - to make highly competitive, adrenalinic if not testosteronic people live well with "live and let live" relaxed guys who don't care to be elite or "skilled" or whatever makes the former feel accomplished.

I am thinking the fix for null sec industry might be to get rid of the jump freighter.

I have observed that players are willing to pay a large premium for convenience. Example skill books. Just 5 jumps from a source is worth a 100% markup or more. So imagine the hassle of slow boat freighting all the way from Jita.
Imagine all the gate camps along the way. The pirates I think would also go for this. Make low sec pirate fun again.

This alone would create demand for null sec industry. And as a side note it would also increase the price of null minerals in Jita. The demand would be two fold, some come from convenience, and some from the difficulty of making the slow boat trip itself.

In fact then industrialists would become a valuable asset in null and something that could be attacked to wipe out your opponents manufacturing ability. Something to fight over in null as a strategic resource.

nope. 0.0 is the only place that really produces exportable quantities of mega/zyd/morph. that's got to get back to empire somehow, even if by regular freighter. that freighter then has to make a return trip; why do it empty?

at the end of the day removing jump freighters does nothing but makes null sec logistics harder. it won't solve anything to do with null sec industry in the slightest.

That's exactly what I was saying - outposts in sov null are complete **** and end up with key aspects split (manufacturing slots in Amarr outpost, refining in Minmatar, research in Caldari) with far fewer slots than your average highsec station.

The way to fix it doesn't need fancy modules or new mechanics - it needs outposts changed to have significantly higher slots, more meaningful upgrades, and sensible layouts (no more splits between stations). You're right in that they need to be better than highsec - not only because of the general idea that player built should always be better than NPC, but because each system can only have one outpost or station.

I love these "highsec people talk about nullsec" threads, they always bring out the best nonsense. Still waiting for something to top "moon mining bots" though.

The "player mindset problem" isn't a problem, it's just reality. Where you have people who want to use limited alliance facilities and limited alliance resources but who don't want to contribute to the preservation of the alliance, they're treated like parasites because that's what they are. And before you even try and say it, no, providing ships and mods on the market isn't contributing, it's profiting. I don't charge my alliance 100M/hr to be in fleet because that's what I'm missing out on not being able to run pirate missions. Yet people like you seem to think that making and selling ships at a profit justifies the investment and protection effort required when those same ships can be imported from Jita without bothering to upgrade stations or protect people who feel they aren't obliged to protect themselves.

So you tell me, V.V., let's say I'm running a 0.0 corp and I have a choice of 2 members applying to join

Member 1 has one ratting/PvP character and one mining/industry character. When the going gets tough, he's prepared to log off his Hulk and get in fleet, spending his time and risking his ship to protect he alliance's space. When things are quiet, he uses the limited build slots to make ships and ammo which he sells

Member 2 has 4 mining/industry characters, and wants to do nothing but mine. When the going gets tough, he ignores intel and doesn't join fleet, and at best he just logs off, leaving others to shoulder the burden of protecting the resources he exploits. When things are quiet, he uses 4x as many limited build slots to make ships and ammo which he sells

Which member should I accept, do you think?


In essence, your complaint reads like you dislike that alliances in 0.0 expect members to contribute to the maintainance and preservation of the alliance, instead of letting you freeload like you can in empire. Why would any CEO want someone like you who views supporting the team as an onerous and unjust obligation?

Then what's this problem with "player mindset" that you're talking about exactly?

No need to kill the jump freighter, just remove mineral compression. Give combat ships large ammo bays but teensy cargo bays. Now you have room for specialist ammunition haulers (i.e.: combat tenders) and producing things closer to the point of consumption becomes a strategic and tactical advantage.

Good idea, let's nerf the one remaining industry remaining in 0.0. That should fix the problem of people not being PvPers there once and for all.

Look back to page one for my statement abot EVE needing a new infusion of people and ides.

As it currently is, all the Null Alliances seem to want is 24 hour "yarr" with no 'outside' help. It's them, not us.