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Jump Freighters are overpowered

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Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#121 - 2011-10-20 19:32:24 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
words


lmao sounds like someone doesn't want their i-win button nerfed.

Follow us @PLIRC!
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#122 - 2011-10-20 20:22:02 UTC
you can't nerf the post button

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#123 - 2011-10-21 07:24:36 UTC
Look, OP:

You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it.

Now please stop posting, kthxbai.

Ni.
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#124 - 2011-10-21 07:29:41 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
Look, OP:

You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it.

Now please stop posting, kthxbai.

Look, POST:

You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it.

Now please stop posting, kthxbai.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2011-10-21 11:03:59 UTC
Centra Spike wrote:

March rabbit wrote:
Centra Spike wrote:
I'm not saying Jump Freighters should be removed, but they need to be brought in line with the of the game.

you mean they need rigs + some amount of slots to defend themself?

fully agree


No, they should require a support fleet to offset their massive logistical capability or have that capability reduced.

well. maybe after super- nerf i will take seriously such idea from a member of the pandemic legion.... but now......

but now: until PL stoped to drop mothers without any support fleet to drakes i don't see any reasons to speak about other "overpowered" ships

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#126 - 2011-10-21 13:00:57 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Centra Spike wrote:

March rabbit wrote:
Centra Spike wrote:
I'm not saying Jump Freighters should be removed, but they need to be brought in line with the of the game.

you mean they need rigs + some amount of slots to defend themself?

fully agree


No, they should require a support fleet to offset their massive logistical capability or have that capability reduced.

well. maybe after super- nerf i will take seriously such idea from a member of the pandemic legion.... but now......

but now: until PL stoped to drop mothers without any support fleet to drakes i don't see any reasons to speak about other "overpowered" ships

Where the idea comes from has no bearing on the truthfulness of it.
Gulnar Metesur
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2011-10-22 06:38:59 UTC
PL tears best tears.

Your biggest issue seems to be about JFs being invulnerable in some situations( ie. when undocking). The issue here isn't the JF, it's game mechanics, docking ranges, cynos, whatever you want to cry about.

Keep the tears coming.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#128 - 2011-10-22 08:58:08 UTC
steave435 wrote:
Lyrrashae wrote:
Look, OP:

You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it.

Now please stop posting, kthxbai.

Look, POST:

You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it.

Now please stop posting, kthxbai.


No, I haven't;

And, what is a POST, please? Considering the source, something involving "pubbie/s," no doubt Roll

Ni.
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#129 - 2011-10-22 12:09:27 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
steave435 wrote:
Lyrrashae wrote:
Look, OP:

You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it.

Now please stop posting, kthxbai.

Look, POST:

You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it.

Now please stop posting, kthxbai.


No, I haven't;

And, what is a POST, please? Considering the source, something involving "pubbie/s," no doubt Roll

Lol, what a noob, doesn't know what a POST is!
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#130 - 2011-10-22 13:48:44 UTC
steave435 wrote:
Lyrrashae wrote:


No, I haven't;

And, what is a POST, please? Considering the source, something involving "pubbie/s," no doubt Roll

Lol, what a noob, doesn't know what a POST is!


From RFC 2616 Section 9.5:

RFC 2616 wrote:

The POST method is used to request that the origin server accept the entity enclosed in the request as a new subordinate of the resource identified by the Request-URI in the Request-Line. POST is designed to allow a uniform method to cover the following functions:

- Annotation of existing resources;

- Posting a message to a bulletin board, newsgroup, mailing list,
or similar group of articles;

- Providing a block of data, such as the result of submitting a
form, to a data-handling process;

- Extending a database through an append operation.

The actual function performed by the POST method is determined by the server and is usually dependent on the Request-URI. The posted entity is subordinate to that URI in the same way that a file is subordinate to a directory containing it, a news article is subordinate to a newsgroup to which it is posted, or a record is subordinate to a database.

The action performed by the POST method might not result in a resource that can be identified by a URI. In this case, either 200 (OK) or 204 (No Content) is the appropriate response status, depending on whether or not the response includes an entity that describes the result.

If a resource has been created on the origin server, the response SHOULD be 201 (Created) and contain an entity which describes the status of the request and refers to the new resource, and a Location header (see section 14.30).

Responses to this method are not cacheable, unless the response includes appropriate Cache-Control or Expires header fields. However, the 303 (See Other) response can be used to direct the user agent to retrieve a cacheable resource.

POST requests MUST obey the message transmission requirements set out in section 8.2.

See section 15.1.3 for security considerations.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#131 - 2011-10-22 14:40:23 UTC
steave435 wrote:
Lyrrashae wrote:
steave435 wrote:
Lyrrashae wrote:
Look, OP:

You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it.

Now please stop posting, kthxbai.

Look, POST:

You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it.

Now please stop posting, kthxbai.


No, I haven't;

And, what is a POST, please? Considering the source, something involving "pubbie/s," no doubt Roll

Lol, what a noob, doesn't know what a POST is!


I thought I was a pubbie? Does this mean I levelled up?

Ni.
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#132 - 2011-10-22 15:10:59 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
steave435 wrote:
Lyrrashae wrote:
steave435 wrote:
Lyrrashae wrote:
Look, OP:

You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it.

Now please stop posting, kthxbai.

Look, POST:

You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it.

Now please stop posting, kthxbai.


No, I haven't;

And, what is a POST, please? Considering the source, something involving "pubbie/s," no doubt Roll

Lol, what a noob, doesn't know what a POST is!


I thought I was a pubbie? Does this mean I levelled up?

They're not exclusive, you can be both Roll
Revii Lagoon
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#133 - 2011-10-23 10:42:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Revii Lagoon
To my knowledge, Jump Freighters do promote trade in null sec, but with very specific things. Without them, carrying large quantities of goods to and from null sec is incredibly difficult due to the limitations of a carrier and significantly less cargo capacity of a Rorqual. Another thing to consider is who is actually using Jump Freighters. I trade in null sec, I trade ships, modules, ammo, all sorts of things, but I can do this without the use of a Jump Freighter because I have a carrier. The Jump mechanics I use are exactly the same as I would a Jump Freighter, jump to stations, dock up, undock, jump ect. But I cannot trade in items that take up large quantities of space such as fuel, which is one of the major life bloods of any null sec alliance.

Basically, majority of traders would use a carrier for trading due to its flexibility, I mean it has good offensive and defensive capabilities, and it can be used to bring just about anything to null sec except fuel and vast quantities of minerals for super caps. Sure you cannot use gates or travel to high sec, but that is only a small issue. If anything the carrier should be nerfed in terms of logistics....

Normally I wouldn't say this, but the price of a Jump Freighter seems to be one of the balancing factors in it. It is the only ship I would ever even consider saying that. For its hefty price tag, it doesn't provide a whole lot. It is more useful as an alliance asset rather than a personal asset. Sure jumping from high sec is slightly beneficial, but for an average trader, the price tag of it does not really justify the benefits of something you can already get out of a carrier, which has much more usability overall.
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#134 - 2011-10-23 16:00:32 UTC
Revii Lagoon wrote:
Normally I wouldn't say this, but the price of a Jump Freighter seems to be one of the balancing factors in it. It is the only ship I would ever even consider saying that. For its hefty price tag, it doesn't provide a whole lot. It is more useful as an alliance asset rather than a personal asset. Sure jumping from high sec is slightly beneficial, but for an average trader, the price tag of it does not really justify the benefits of something you can already get out of a carrier, which has much more usability overall.


The 'average' trader rarely if ever has the need to transit out of high sec space, though, and as such would of course be better served by a T1 freighter should their capacity needs reach that point. But this is just me being nitpicky. Actually, come to think of it, the agility bonus that every JF gets is quite nice - sometimes if you have more than what a indy can haul, but still < 333k m3 to move down the pipe, it make sense to use your Anshar over your Obelisk just for the time savings in that regard.

As an aside...

I used to think the same about cost being a limiting factor being that the window sticker on any given JF is (currently) around 5.6bn ISK, which makes only Moms and Titans the only more expensive ships in the game.

But after killing a slew of these over the past few months, there have been several occasions where I've blown one up, and - this is no exaggeration - 30 minutes to an hour later the same toon is seen in a new JF. I kidd you not.

Billion is the new Million in this game.
Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#135 - 2011-10-23 17:20:39 UTC
Revii Lagoon wrote:
To my knowledge, Jump Freighters do promote trade in null sec, but with very specific things. Without them, carrying large quantities of goods to and from null sec is incredibly difficult due to the limitations of a carrier and significantly less cargo capacity of a Rorqual. Another thing to consider is who is actually using Jump Freighters. I trade in null sec, I trade ships, modules, ammo, all sorts of things, but I can do this without the use of a Jump Freighter because I have a carrier. The Jump mechanics I use are exactly the same as I would a Jump Freighter, jump to stations, dock up, undock, jump ect. But I cannot trade in items that take up large quantities of space such as fuel, which is one of the major life bloods of any null sec alliance.

Basically, majority of traders would use a carrier for trading due to its flexibility, I mean it has good offensive and defensive capabilities, and it can be used to bring just about anything to null sec except fuel and vast quantities of minerals for super caps. Sure you cannot use gates or travel to high sec, but that is only a small issue. If anything the carrier should be nerfed in terms of logistics....

Normally I wouldn't say this, but the price of a Jump Freighter seems to be one of the balancing factors in it. It is the only ship I would ever even consider saying that. For its hefty price tag, it doesn't provide a whole lot. It is more useful as an alliance asset rather than a personal asset. Sure jumping from high sec is slightly beneficial, but for an average trader, the price tag of it does not really justify the benefits of something you can already get out of a carrier, which has much more usability overall.


You are right, the jump mechanics are a major issue, but only a part of my argument against JFs. The hauling space of a carrier vs. a JF is massive, as is moving all that stuff to a carrier in the first place. Now it's not so much the cargo size of a JF, it's that they can haul so much finished stuff. I mean a packaged BS is 10x smaller than a unpackaged one, what the hell?

Price can't be a factor in balancing something because there is so much ISK in the game, CCP originally thought that Titans would be limited alliance assets because no one could make that much ISK. I made enough ISK in one month to afford my Avatar and Aeon and I am well on my way to a second Titan just by sitting on three tech moons, ironically abusing JF mechanics to do so.

Follow us @PLIRC!
Techno General
Trash Pandas of Kaunokka
#136 - 2011-10-24 14:44:23 UTC
JF's cant jump while in dock range/session change. Problem fixed.
thrulinn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2011-10-24 15:10:21 UTC
Centra Spike wrote:



Price can't be a factor in balancing something because there is so much ISK in the game, CCP originally thought that Titans would be limited alliance assets because no one could make that much ISK. I made enough ISK in one month to afford my Avatar and Aeon and I am well on my way to a second Titan just by sitting on three tech moons, ironically abusing JF mechanics to do so.



How about just get rid of all jump drives?? then you can gate camp them with your Titans.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#138 - 2011-10-24 15:19:34 UTC
Centra Spike wrote:
You are right, the jump mechanics are a major issue, but only a part of my argument against JFs. The hauling space of a carrier vs. a JF is massive, as is moving all that stuff to a carrier in the first place. Now it's not so much the cargo size of a JF, it's that they can haul so much finished stuff. I mean a packaged BS is 10x smaller than a unpackaged one, what the hell?


didn't you already give up on this stupid argument when you were completely unable to respond to my earlier post

put up or shut up, son

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#139 - 2011-10-24 18:17:04 UTC
Techno General wrote:
JF's cant jump while in dock range/session change. Problem fixed.


This changes nothing at all.

The single point someone patient enough can ever try to address is the ability of jumping directly from high to low/null, every thing else is BS.

Most moved stuff in null s done by carriers, rorquals you know why? -4 times cheaper and same job (but can't jump in or from high)

So where is the problem?
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#140 - 2011-10-25 11:16:32 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Techno General wrote:
JF's cant jump while in dock range/session change. Problem fixed.


This changes nothing at all.

The single point someone patient enough can ever try to address is the ability of jumping directly from high to low/null, every thing else is BS.

Most moved stuff in null s done by carriers, rorquals you know why? -4 times cheaper and same job (but can't jump in or from high)

So where is the problem?

Most PVP ships flown in nullsec are sub caps or at most regular caps, you know why? They're cheaper then the supercaps, that are getting nerfed since price is apparently not a balancing factor.
A JF can move 30-35 times more stuff then a carrier if you count only regular cargo, or 3 times as much if you include the SMA (SMA size cut by 10 for this comparison since assembled size of a ship is roughly 10 times higher then packaged), while not requiring you to haul stuff between high sec and the ship. Consider that again. That is a HUUUUUUGE benefit. You can jump it straight out from Jita rather then having to make 30+ trips in a blockade runner (if you go with the safest method, which is still nowhere near as safe as not having to pass gates at all) to get it to your carrier/Rorq and then making multiple jumps from your low sec pick up point, and that's assuming you're even able to use a blockade runner at all, which you can't if it's a BC or larger ship. To bring the 7 BS a Rhea can hold to low sec, you'd need 4-7 trips with an Orca (can't remember the exact max cargo for it, can it hold 2 BS at a time when fitted and rigged for max cargo with max skills?), fly them all there manually 1 at a time or use a freighter. After that, you need 4 trips back and forth between your home and your low sec staging system to carry them all there.

So to compare the time lines for a JF and a Carrier trying to move 18 BS from Jita, carrier goes with the fastest but highest risk method available, using a freighter to haul it to low sec. The low sec jump off point is assumed to be only 3 jumps away, aka the closest low sec available. Destination is assumed to be 1 mid point out, this should be about right for most places compared to its closest hub:
00m 00s: Both undock from Jita.
00m 05s: Freighter warps to an insta and starts aligning towards its first gate. JF just wait for session change to expire, holding its invulnerability.
00m 30s: JF jumps out to the first mid point and doesn't move, thus remaining invulnerable.
00m 45s: Freighter enters warp to the first gate
01m 00s: JF docks for cap
01m 30s: JF exits station, keeps invulnerability by not moving
02m 00s: JF jumps to destination, freighter arrives at the first gate. He jumps on contact and begins to align to the second gate.
02m 30s: JF docks up at destination, unloads the BS and load up moon goo, loot and minerals etc.
02m 45s: Freighter enters warp
03m 00s: JF undocks for the second trip
03m 30s: JF jumps to the midpoint
04m 00s: JF docks up in midpoint, freighter arrives on the second gate. He jumps on contact and starts aligning to the third gate
04m 30s: JF undocks
04m 45s: Freighter enters warp
05m 00s: JF jumps to low sec staging point, he wants to take no risks so he holds his invulnerability until his session change has expired
05m 30s: JF begins aligning to the first high sec gate
06m 00s: JF enters warp (JFs get an agility bonus, so while the freighter takes about 45 seconds to warp, the JF takes 30), freighter arrives at the third gate and jumps on contact to low sec and starts aligning
06m 45s: Freighter enters warp
07m 15s: JF arrive at the first gate. He jumps on contacts and starts to align
07m 45s: Freighter arrives at the station and docks up. The BS are unloaded, assembled and 2 of them are put in the carriers SMA. This also marks the hub-staging point travel time, which will be used later. JF enters warp to second gate.
08m 15s: Carrier undocks. This marks the start of the carriers round trip time from the low sec staging system to destination and back.
08m 45s: Carrier jumps to mid point
09m 00s: JF arrives at the second gate, he jumps on contact and starts aligning to Jita gate
09m 15s: Carrier docks up
09m 30s: JF enters warp
09m 45s: Carrier undocks
10m 15s: Carrier jumps to destination
10m 45s: Carrier docks up at destination and unloads the 2 BS, and loads up on...pretty much nothing, you don't need to move ships from 0.0 to high sec, they go the other way. JF arrives at Jita gate, jumps on contact and aligns for station
11m 15s: Carrier undocks
11m 45s: Carrier jumps to mid point
12m 00s: JF docks up in Jita and unloads the moon goo/loot/minerals
12m 15s: Carrier docks in the mid point
12m 30s: JF undocks from Jita and restarts the cycle. This is the total time for a round trip. Since the JF needs to make a total of 3 trips, it will complete the haul in 12,5m * 3 = 37,5m. Since that is established, I will no longer include the JF in the time line.
12m 45s: Carrier undocks from the midpoint
13m 15s: Carrier jumps to the low sec staging system
13m 45s: Carrier docks up in the low sec staging system. It loads up on 2 new BS.
14m 15s: Carrier undocks. This marks the end of the first round trip from the low sec staging to destination, which took 6 minutes to complete.

Continued in the next post..