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The "vocal minority"
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Sir Substance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-10-22 12:41:29 UTC
I notice that certain blinkered people still think that the recent changes are the result of a vocal minority whining on the forums rather then a majority voting with their wallet, as requested.

I ask you the following question:

If the majority of players want Incarna, why are they not protesting this new change of heart? All I hear from them is silence.

Those of you who supported Incarna. You are the minority, by a clear margin. Sorry to burst your bubble.

The rest of you, the ones who chose to make no choice. You didn't vote when the vote was on. Your opinion is irrelevant. I have no idea if you are a majority or a minority within the overall playerbase, but since you never say anything, I'll never know, and I'll never care, because you'll never matter.

Of the people that did vote, the majority was us, and I thank my fellow pilots, one and all.

Discuss.

The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex

Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer
Rhaegor Stormborn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2011-10-22 12:43:46 UTC
Sir Substance wrote:
I notice that certain blinkered people still think that the recent changes are the result of a vocal minority whining on the forums rather then a majority voting with their wallet, as requested.

I ask you the following question:

If the majority of players want Incarna, why are they not protesting this new change of heart? All I hear from them is silence.

Those of you who supported Incarna. You are the minority, by a clear margin. Sorry to burst your bubble.

The rest of you, the ones who chose to make no choice. You didn't vote when the vote was on. Your opinion is irrelevant. I have no idea if you are a majority or a minority within the overall playerbase, but since you never say anything, I'll never know, and I'll never care, because you'll never matter.

Of the people that did vote, the majority was us, and I thank my fellow pilots, one and all.

Discuss.



The internet spaceship pilots who have been PvPing for years are what keeps Eve alive. We spoke with our subscriptions. CCP knows it, and thus the focus on internet spaceships, primarily for PvPers, but the changes will benefit empire carebears as well.
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#3 - 2011-10-22 12:47:47 UTC
If everyone who wanted dressup barbie in station left the game right now i am 99.9% sure NOONE would notice a difference as there would still be the exact same amount of folks in space..... just a reduction of people in local as im sure they dont leave station that often.
Whyumadtho
Doomheim
#4 - 2011-10-22 12:49:17 UTC
Theres 2 types of people in Eve.

Bitter vets or vocal minoritys.

Lol internet forums.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-10-22 12:49:41 UTC
First of all

INCARNA the original spirit of such i guess it was called ambulation or something was greatly supported.

Second thing SC nerfs and some other **** is basically null sec. political struggle in other words who can look "cute" with his dog got the point.

More ships and some graphics etc. is allways good.

FW / cant answer that change since i am not the right one for it. But i hope it will actually get meaningful/ same as null sec politics but with high/low sec.

Stop Incarna well many people are misinformed i guess. What people where asking was finished Incarna but first of all fix the gallante hulls or hybrid turets systems Big smile

In due time nobody will be satisfied and everything will be there.
Caulk H0lster
Kazakh Ministry of Wealth Redistribution
#6 - 2011-10-22 12:53:21 UTC
IMHO, CCP should make a sub-forum for Incarna, and move all threads brimming with tears over it's demise into said sub-forum, so we can continue discussing SPACESHIPS in a constructive manner on this forum.
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2011-10-22 12:53:44 UTC
I think most people are fine with or indifferent to incarna in theory. The problems were that it came at the cost of much-needed fixes throughout the actual spaceship game and the actual incarna content itself was ******* awful. Don;t do it at the expense of ignoring much needed work on the spaceship game and especially dont do a ****** job on the incarna that you do produce.

Pretty simple. You don't need a crack team of high-powered executives to figure this out.
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2011-10-22 12:56:46 UTC
The OP doesn't quite get it, nor do many other posters on these forums. Here's a breakdown with some imaginary numbers:
20% of EVE population: Vocal FiSers
10% of EVE population: Vocal WiSers
70% of EVE population: Quiet We-Don't-Care-What-CCP-Do-Because-We-Like-Or-Accept-It-All-ers

I'm part of that 3rd group, as I'm sure many other players are. Most wouldn't post because they're not as...opinionated....as the other groups.

EVE is not split into two distinct groups.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-10-22 12:59:01 UTC  |  Edited by: March rabbit
to OP: you are great! Shocked

btw: what is this thread about?

oh... i see.... one more thread "Mommy look at me! I'm important!". Sorry to burst your bubbles guys. You are not important.... Lol

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2011-10-22 12:59:47 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
The OP doesn't quite get it, nor do many other posters on these forums. Here's a breakdown with some imaginary numbers:
20% of EVE population: Vocal FiSers
10% of EVE population: Vocal WiSers
70% of EVE population: Quiet We-Don't-Care-What-CCP-Do-Because-We-Like-Or-Accept-It-All-ers

I'm part of that 3rd group, as I'm sure many other players are. Most wouldn't post because they're not as...opinionated....as the other groups.

EVE is not split into two distinct groups.


Well yes but i would rather not talk about concepts of forum posters, vocal minority, smart minority and other players... Because in the end everyone is correct. Its all strongly subjective with no real end.
Caulk H0lster
Kazakh Ministry of Wealth Redistribution
#11 - 2011-10-22 13:00:08 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
The OP doesn't quite get it, nor do many other posters on these forums. Here's a breakdown with some imaginary numbers:
20% of EVE population: Vocal FiSers
10% of EVE population: Vocal WiSers
70% of EVE population: Quiet We-Don't-Care-What-CCP-Do-Because-We-Like-Or-Accept-It-All-ers

I'm part of that 3rd group, as I'm sure many other players are. Most wouldn't post because they're not as...opinionated....as the other groups.

EVE is not split into two distinct groups.


Except out of that 70%, huge numbers unsubbed over the past year because they weren't happy with the direction EVE is going, without ever saying a word on these forums. Clearly they weren't wiling to just "accept whatever ccp does" and live with it, they just *left*.
Sir Substance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2011-10-22 13:01:38 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:


I'm part of that 3rd group, as I'm sure many other players are. Most wouldn't post because they're not as...opinionated....as the other groups.

EVE is not split into two distinct groups.


This more or less sums up my opinion on people who choose not to vote because they don't have strong opinions:

Anchovies

The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex

Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer
Heimdallofasgard
Ministry of Furious Retribution
Insidious.
#13 - 2011-10-22 13:11:04 UTC
Caulk H0lster wrote:
IMHO, CCP should make a sub-forum for Incarna, and move all threads brimming with tears over it's demise into said sub-forum, so we can continue discussing SPACESHIPS in a constructive manner on this forum.


This ^^ Sub forum for WiS discussion :D
Heimdallofasgard
Ministry of Furious Retribution
Insidious.
#14 - 2011-10-22 13:12:25 UTC
Caulk H0lster wrote:
DarkAegix wrote:
The OP doesn't quite get it, nor do many other posters on these forums. Here's a breakdown with some imaginary numbers:
20% of EVE population: Vocal FiSers
10% of EVE population: Vocal WiSers
70% of EVE population: Quiet We-Don't-Care-What-CCP-Do-Because-We-Like-Or-Accept-It-All-ers

I'm part of that 3rd group, as I'm sure many other players are. Most wouldn't post because they're not as...opinionated....as the other groups.

EVE is not split into two distinct groups.


Except out of that 70%, huge numbers unsubbed over the past year because they weren't happy with the direction EVE is going, without ever saying a word on these forums. Clearly they weren't wiling to just "accept whatever ccp does" and live with it, they just *left*.


Don't forget...
...
...
the percentage of players who actually post on forums.
Ann133566
Doomheim
#15 - 2011-10-22 13:14:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Ann133566
What happened to my post?! Shocked
T-Jay Charante
Black Sun Industry and Research
#16 - 2011-10-22 13:19:25 UTC
Sir Substance wrote:
I notice that certain blinkered people still think that the recent changes are the result of a vocal minority whining on the forums rather then a majority voting with their wallet, as requested.

I ask you the following question:

If the majority of players want Incarna, why are they not protesting this new change of heart? All I hear from them is silence.

Those of you who supported Incarna. You are the minority, by a clear margin. Sorry to burst your bubble.

The rest of you, the ones who chose to make no choice. You didn't vote when the vote was on. Your opinion is irrelevant. I have no idea if you are a majority or a minority within the overall playerbase, but since you never say anything, I'll never know, and I'll never care, because you'll never matter.

Of the people that did vote, the majority was us, and I thank my fellow pilots, one and all.

Discuss.


Why did it take pilots 5 years to protest? Walking in stations has been on the table since 2006.
Caulk H0lster
Kazakh Ministry of Wealth Redistribution
#17 - 2011-10-22 13:24:01 UTC
T-Jay Charante wrote:
Sir Substance wrote:
I notice that certain blinkered people still think that the recent changes are the result of a vocal minority whining on the forums rather then a majority voting with their wallet, as requested.

I ask you the following question:

If the majority of players want Incarna, why are they not protesting this new change of heart? All I hear from them is silence.

Those of you who supported Incarna. You are the minority, by a clear margin. Sorry to burst your bubble.

The rest of you, the ones who chose to make no choice. You didn't vote when the vote was on. Your opinion is irrelevant. I have no idea if you are a majority or a minority within the overall playerbase, but since you never say anything, I'll never know, and I'll never care, because you'll never matter.

Of the people that did vote, the majority was us, and I thank my fellow pilots, one and all.

Discuss.


Why did it take pilots 5 years to protest? Walking in stations has been on the table since 2006.


Because it was in the past 12 months that this idea has actually been executed, and at the expense of neglecting pretty much anything gameplay related.

Before then, while WiS was on the table, it was not the focus, and CCP continued to provide meaningful gameplay updates on a regular basis.
Ann133566
Doomheim
#18 - 2011-10-22 13:41:03 UTC
You are mistaken if you think there are any winners from the Incarna debacle. EVE lost a lot of credibility due to its failure and subsequent fallout. You may all feel vindicated that CCP has decided to refocus on FiS. The danger is that CCP may solely focus on null and WH space and forget the empire dweller, miners and builders as well as the noob players. Lets remember that Incarna was largely about attracting new players to the game and improving the noob experience, which tends to be disappointing, confusing and demoralising experience for them unless they get into a good corp and get support and incentives to keep playing.

As a recruiter and pvp trainer for a medium sized corp I can tell you from firsthand experience that in the last 6 months there has been a slow decline in the number of new players taking up the game and sticking with it. This is something that should concern us all, because without fresh blood the game will stagnate and die a slow death.

To be honest at first I was delighted with the announcement that CCP decided to refocus on FiS and put WiS on the backburner. However the more I reflect on it the more concerns I have and if I’m honest I’m wondering if we are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. just a thought.
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2011-10-22 13:58:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Elise DarkStar
Ann133566 wrote:
To be honest at first I was delighted with the announcement that CCP decided to refocus on FiS and put WiS on the backburner. However the more I reflect on it the more concerns I have and if I’m honest I’m wondering if we are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. just a thought.


You are absolutely right to be concerned. This issue is really open-ended and hard to pin down with solid facts, so we have to rely on our impressions and those of others.

I think this game does need to be more noob-friendly and be able to draw from a much wider pool of players. However, they ultimately need first and foremost to be transitioning into that which makes Eve competitive with other games. This doesn't mean nullsec or even pvp, what it does mean is that people may come for fancy avatars, but they will not stay for fancy avatars and dull gameplay. You need that player-created content and you need new people to be transitioning into creating content for themselves and others while older players are leaving.

You can pack hisec full of noobs in goggles, but that is absolutely valueless if there is nothing for them to work towards beyond that. This hollowing of the core game is why people were so concerned by Incarna. A bunch of noobs in goggles is absolutely fantastic, if the core game is still producing that player-driven content that makes Eve competitive and new players are able and wanting to find a place in it.

The first step is to have a core game where you can compete, the second step is to have proper transitions for new players (which is the biggest challenge with Eve), and then and only then can an expansion of your playerbase have an effective and lasting impact.

One thing I am extremely confident of is that it is the player-driven content that makes Eve competitive. It is also what makes it a niche game that is unfriendly to new players, but that's something that can be addressed. If CCP tries to go up against Blizzard etc and loses its niche aspect that makes it competitive, it will die. I guarantee it.
Caulk H0lster
Kazakh Ministry of Wealth Redistribution
#20 - 2011-10-22 14:01:12 UTC
m8, WiS is not the answer to get new people to play and stick with the game.

High-sec, low-sec and null are all CONNECTED and part of the same EVE universe. There isn't THAT much of a separation. The difference is the risk/reward ratio. It's fine if there's people that don't want to play EVE and have to deal with higher risk situations, and want to stay in highsec, but there is little desire from many players to risk their ships in lowsec or 0.0, because the incentives are just NOT THERE.

Further, gameplay and balance issues currently make it VERY difficult for younger players to find roles in PvP, especially meaningful roles in 0.0 PvP. It just takes years to get the skill points and flying skills necessary, as well as the ships and wealth necessary, to be successful. The current PvP landscape is challenging for older players to be competitive in if they don't have a supercap, let alone someone just getting started who has little isk, and who can't possibly fly two different fully T2 fit battleships.

IMHO, a huge part of the problem is the missing component of small gang PvP. No, it doesn't really prepare you for the big fleet actions in 0.0, but it gives younger players an outlet where they can learn how to think on their feet (in a spaceship), and frequently the corps who are successful in small gang warfare were more open to younger members, and were led by veterans who could pass on their knowledge. This component of PvP is now almost completely missing in EVE, because it's not particularly viable anymore. You can still get small gang fights in wormholes, or in lowsec, or faction war, but the problems still remain that many of the ships that made small gang warfare viable have been or are slated to be nerfed to the point where small gang PvPs risk generally outweighs the reward on the risk/reward thing, since it's so easy to get caught by a blob now, especially in 0.0.
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