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The Killright system stinks and here's why.

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Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#41 - 2012-12-08 02:09:46 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
I'm not sure. But I guess the issue for me is having everything tied to a suspect flag. I don't think killrights should be. Yeah you can gain an immediate suspect flag per normal actions that generate one but Retribution shouldn't be implicitly tied to that flag permanently. You weren't a criminal/suspect before this change after you earned a killright once the timer ran out. You were free to roam around as you saw fit but had the chance to run in to a guy who could attack you freely in revenge. That system was good. It just needed an option for the pilot to sell that revenge to a person equipped to handle it.

The new system sucks for both parties. Its going to stagnate pvp. No one operating in hisec is going to run around in anything worth killing with a public gank one click away. Okay maybe the inane will but anyone worth their salt would know better. If I kill you tonight I assure you, you won't catch me in a bling ship for thirty days. Anyone who would is either incredibly foolish or rich enough to not care. Actually I could personally im sitting on half a dozen tengus but i'd still opt for not giving the target the satisfaction.

That dynamic would change if I couldn't tell if you had made the killright purchaseable and if I knew that it wasn't accessible with one click to the entire EVE universe. The level of absurdity in that isn't worth detailing. Anyone that can read and write and put a coherent sentence together can see the difference.


Hit the nail on the head right there.

It's funny too that I often read posts saying that a player, even in high sec, should have to be watching over their shoulder. Being able to dock up for 15min defeats the purpose.

The person does the crime, they are told that their actions gave the other person a kill right against them. The flag expires but the kill right does not. It lasts until fulfilled and the aggressor gets no further warnings.


http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#42 - 2012-12-08 02:10:29 UTC
The system you describe is exactly the one we tried to have implemented in our threadnaughts, and the dev blog threads. It fell on deaf ears. I am starting to lose hope that we'll ever see a bounty-hunting system that actually makes sense, but at the same time I'm starting to realize that CCP might not have a choice. They must be pretty hard-pressed to make bear concessions of this scale. I refuse to believe that they'd take game development in this direction on their own volition unless survival was on the line.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with everything you're saying (though it might seem in this thread you have a more confrontational way of saying stuff). I just don't know if fighting the good fight is worth the effort anymore.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#43 - 2012-12-08 02:38:33 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Suvetar
Thread cleaned, somewhat strenuously.

Please avoid wandering off into personal attacks and trolls.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-12-08 15:03:45 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Suvetar
Edit: Snipped discussion of moderation.

If you want to discuss moderation then raise a petition using the Other Issues -> Community or Forum category.

ISD Suvetar
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2012-12-08 15:49:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Theres no guarentee a killright purchased can be claimed. Not through any mechanic the purchaser has to do with. (IE pvp skill)

It requires an activation to use which immediately notifies the target of who activated it. The activation lasts for 15 minutes. On top of the amateur local intel chat you now have a second form of free intel in a system advertised to bring new life to pvp. The double fail safe of local chat and the notification means almost all of the potential fights that could happen won't. The act of Retribution will be one of so rare occurence as to be almost non existent. Ill back up my claim. Someone drop a few billion bounty on me. You'll never ever get one killmail that was directly linked to someone exacting your revenge. You may eventually reward someone who happened to kill me in a fleet battle. But thats hardly Retribution now is it?


when someone activates a kill right on you the suspect timer starts ticking and there's a subtle notify saying "Kill right activated on you. You can temporarily be attacked without CONCORD intervention."

only to explain why you're now a suspect

it doesn't tell you who activated it, so I'm not sure where you're going with this.

people just have to make sure not to activate a kill right on someone where and when they can quickly dock or escape



Unless you're in Dodixie when that happens and even 5km off dock you get mauled by 10 people in a slicer. Yes this is kind of tears worthy (I'm not really mad, just griping) but it's still flawed. The actual control of kill right assignments makes it to where you don't want to go to lowsec or acquire kill rights against you unless you do it fulltime. Which I personally think becomes a bigger pain than fun.

In a game of player created emergent gameplay and markets ran by players, it becomes I think a larger obstacle and forces more people to avoid main trade hubs and enforces a mentality of having to double check and rethink which places you go to.

I figured we wanted MORE pvp, not less. (KR ganking is not pvp).

I don't mind the selling or making it available to public, that part I actually do like a lot. I don't like the activation part though. Too hindering in my book. I think a KR timer should be activated on purchase and be on for a longer amount of time than GCC/Aggression timers (few hours maybe) as a fitting punishment (if you choose to dock it out), or escalate it to a reverse kill right bounty or make the bounty buyout-able by the guy the KR is on. IE; give me the option of buying out the paid KR transaction at a 3x cost or something.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#46 - 2012-12-08 15:58:40 UTC
Please continue to tell us how impossible it is to catch people with killrights.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=18197021
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=18181692
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=18200286#mail

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-12-08 16:00:43 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Please continue to tell us how impossible it is to catch people with killrights.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=18197021
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=18181692
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=18200286#mail



You aren't targeting a specific individual, your activating killrights on those who just so happen... theres a difference. See if you can figure out why its important.
Mirima Thurander
#48 - 2012-12-08 16:04:16 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
In null sec you get a warning when someone else enters local. In high sec you get a warning when someone activates kill rights on you. What is the issue here?

Remove them both. There both safety nets to the stupid.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#49 - 2012-12-08 16:06:42 UTC
I just had an anoying idea. It concerns abit this killright thing.

How long does it take into effect that if someone places a bounty on me and then can start shooting at me?

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#50 - 2012-12-08 17:49:38 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Good luck finding anyone with a killright redeemable in the only place it matters, high sec...


Er, the only place you would need one in order to shoot at someone is high sec. What do kill rights mean in low/nullsec? That makes your point sort of self-defeating.
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#51 - 2012-12-08 18:02:50 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
I just had an anoying idea. It concerns abit this killright thing.

How long does it take into effect that if someone places a bounty on me and then can start shooting at me?


bounties alone don't mean anyone can shoot you

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
YoYo NickyYo
Doomheim
#52 - 2012-12-08 18:20:25 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
You missed his point the systems fine besides the one part that warns your target before you even open fire.



You aren't capable of starting your target lock and activating the killright at the same time? hmmm....



I am not, nor will I ever be...Nicky Yo.... The question you should ask is.....When will they release the NICKY!
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#53 - 2012-12-08 18:36:18 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
You aren't targeting a specific individual, your activating killrights on those who just so happen... there's a difference. See if you can figure out why its important.


They're still someone's "specific individual". Just because they're not the person you want dead, doesn't mean the system doesn't work. The new KR system doesn't guarantee a kill. Why should it? It's significantly more useful than the old system, that's for damn sure.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2012-12-08 18:52:07 UTC
I took the OP as being a poorly worded way of saying that bounties on people living in high sec are rarely ever going to make suicide ganking them worthwhile.

I dont' think that guy in a merlin is going to get ganked regardless of how much his bounty is, and that you're going to end up having to rely on people suicide ganking for a bounty to be worth collecting, which is also the same situation you'll be primarilly relying upon for killrights as well in high sec.

If you want to hunt bounties, you're probably going to need to go to low or null, or be able to wardec a high sec corp -which I expect to end up being the primary way people collect bounties-.


I think the bounty system's biggest flaw is that it will drive more people back into the NPC corps where they wont have to worry about bounties. I hope I"m wrong, I don't think I will be though. I do think that the driving force behind people staying in high sec is to minimize risk, and being in the NPC corps just increased that level safety by a lot due to the bounty system.

It'll end with the same results as inferno had on mining.
People taking advantage of whatever provides the greatest possible safety. It's human nature.
Julius Priscus
#55 - 2012-12-08 19:00:43 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Yesterday some friends saw a freighter undock from Jita with a buyable kill right. Neither the freighter or the kill right still exist.

Oops.


Fraps or it didn't happen. That being said though, how often is that going to occur? 99% of the time its going to be a game of chase the guy with the killright in his frigate until he's killed and the killmail no longer exists. Because with a 15 minute window of opportunity the chance of any real preparation and catching of people off guard and in something worthwhile Retributing against isn't going to happen.

Im sure the most inane of the platerbase will fall but you won't catch any real target thats knows the game with this system.


do all the prepping before you activate and then you have 15 minutes to do the killingCool



that 15 minutes extends once engaged.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#56 - 2012-12-08 19:52:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I took the OP as being a poorly worded way of saying that bounties on people living in high sec are rarely ever going to make suicide ganking them worthwhile.


Bounties are fine, killright ganking passing itself off as a bounty hunting profession is the problem. Among other things.

I do understand the confusion in the way I worded it. Unfortunately, im discussing a few issues at the same time im having my thread deleted so it may have caused that issue. My gripe is with the killright system being 100% scammable at the inevitable expense of the bounty hunting system, the new concept of killright ganking as bounty hunting in its current implementation and CCPs refusal to add any real risk to Hisec, even for those who have committed an act to generate a killright.
Pyre leFay
Doomheim
#57 - 2012-12-08 21:56:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Pyre leFay
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
the new concept of killright ganking as bounty hunting in its current implementation and CCPs refusal to add any real risk to Hisec, even for those who have committed an act to generate a killright.


That would be the sellers fault. Apart from easily deduced scams. If it is public and a nominal price, it wont taking long for the "criminal" to either pay off his own killright, or gets killed in a cheap ship getting some extra fights from hunters going after killrights passing by. Mild annoyance or amusement for the perpetrator.

Or you can make the killright private and free to a real bounty hunter, And pay a hunter to do optimal damage at just the right time when applicable. Give 500m to a third party and agree to a payout of value and a half of the kill value. It'll make the real hunter do some foot work for a decent payoff.

Selling a kill to just anyone is the lazy hope you get something out of it. Like selling or buying on market in simple mode and relying on the average of the region without any real input. If you actually put effort into revenge the tools are there.
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#58 - 2012-12-09 00:09:10 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
You aren't targeting a specific individual, your activating killrights on those who just so happen... there's a difference. See if you can figure out why its important.


They're still someone's "specific individual". Just because they're not the person you want dead, doesn't mean the system doesn't work. The new KR system doesn't guarantee a kill. Why should it? It's significantly more useful than the old system, that's for damn sure.



It never did, nor would it ever, guarantee a kill. If you can't beat them, you don't get the kill. The point is that the kill right system is too opportunistic when it shouldn't be.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
Imrik86
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-12-09 19:39:24 UTC
CCP introduces way too many complicated rules and mechanisms with every new feature.

Take for instance kill rights. It's a simple idea: payback. Then, CCP manages to introduce two different mechanics just for this. Why?

CCP has to understand that a game with fewer rules is both easier to understand, more rewarding to play and has less flaws to exploit. Haven't they learned anything with the FW fiasco?
Mirima Thurander
#60 - 2012-12-11 00:32:10 UTC
I for one dislike the fact they get a warning the most warning they should get is my rounds impacting there shields.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.