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Crime & Punishment

 
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Crimewatch and the new 'suspect' logi
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Aji Usoko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-12-07 20:26:02 UTC
So I get the crimewatch changes that CCP made—but seriously do not understand why logi do not just inherit the 'limited engagement' of the fleet-mates they are repping. Now, in order to legally (or 'non-supiciously') rep a fleet-mate you have to put damage on the target-of-your-target, plus all the other micromanagement that is going on with ET, etc. This is next to impossible in any sizable fleet-to-fleet engagement with non-WTs, and opens the door for some serious abuse (quick! kill the logi! they all just went suspect). So what, only baddies get logi support from their evil 'suspicious' logibros? I guess time to embrace the dark-side all you logibro! And so much for the Hippocratic Oath!
Griznatch
Distinguished Gentleman's Boating Club
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#2 - 2012-12-07 20:55:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Griznatch
How exactly do you have a "sizeable fleet to fleet engagement" without a war between said fleets anywhere that suspect flags matter?

I used to have a clever sig but I lost it.
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#3 - 2012-12-07 20:58:58 UTC
Griznatch wrote:
How exactly do you have a "sizeable fleet to fleet engagement" without a war between said fleets anywhere that suspect flags matter?


Low sec, wormhole, nul, corp in fighting, mass can looting at a deep safe, there are ways.
Griznatch
Distinguished Gentleman's Boating Club
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#4 - 2012-12-07 21:07:39 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Griznatch wrote:
How exactly do you have a "sizeable fleet to fleet engagement" without a war between said fleets anywhere that suspect flags matter?


Low sec, wormhole, nul, corp in fighting, mass can looting at a deep safe, there are ways.



Oh, you mean situations where the suspect flag makes no difference at all?

I used to have a clever sig but I lost it.
Aji Usoko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-12-07 21:26:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Aji Usoko
Griznatch wrote:
How exactly do you have a "sizeable fleet to fleet engagement" without a war between said fleets anywhere that suspect flags matter?


Low sec roams can easily end up in a 10v10 (or 30v30) against -5 sec status fleets. Not the point though. Point is the screwy logic of the mechanics—why is repping a fleet-member any different than shooting the opponent? Basically logi can't logi effectively without becoming 'suspect' anymore.
Griznatch
Distinguished Gentleman's Boating Club
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#6 - 2012-12-07 21:33:17 UTC
Aji Usoko wrote:
Griznatch wrote:
How exactly do you have a "sizeable fleet to fleet engagement" without a war between said fleets anywhere that suspect flags matter?


Just about every low sec roam we go on ends up in a 10v10 (or 30v30) against -5 sec status fleets. Not the point though. Point is the screwy logic of the mechanics—why is repping a fleet-member any different than shooting the opponent? Basically logi can't logi effectively without becoming 'suspect' anymore.



In low sec? Where people can shoot your logi with or without a suspect flag? Or are you upset that your logi has to hide out for a few minutes after the fight before you scamper back into the safety of high sec?

I used to have a clever sig but I lost it.
Aji Usoko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-12-07 22:15:09 UTC
Griznatch wrote:
In low sec? Where people can shoot your logi with or without a suspect flag? Or are you upset that your logi has to hide out for a few minutes after the fight before you scamper back into the safety of high sec?


In low sec, people can't shoot you (unless you're a global target) without getting a suspect flag! That's why it's low-sec and not null-sec. And don't want to hide... i want to rep... totally fine shooting and becoming involved in the "limited engagement". I just don't have any guns dude! I'm a logi. So much for trying to having a meaningful conversation about game mechanics.
Griznatch
Distinguished Gentleman's Boating Club
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#8 - 2012-12-07 22:34:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Griznatch
Aji Usoko wrote:
Griznatch wrote:
In low sec? Where people can shoot your logi with or without a suspect flag? Or are you upset that your logi has to hide out for a few minutes after the fight before you scamper back into the safety of high sec?


In low sec, people can't shoot you (unless you're a global target) without getting a suspect flag! That's why it's low-sec and not null-sec. And don't want to hide... i want to rep... totally fine shooting and becoming involved in the "limited engagement". I just don't have any guns dude! I'm a logi. So much for trying to having a meaningful conversation about game mechanics.



So you're upset that when you rep someone in a fight in lowsec, your opponents can legally shoot at you?

I used to have a clever sig but I lost it.
Aji Usoko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-12-07 22:49:23 UTC
Griznatch wrote:
So you're upset that when you rep someone in a fight in lowsec, the people you're fighting can shoot you without getting a suspect flag?


No, exactly the opposite. I want the people we're fighting to be able to shoot me—because I'm repping my fleetmates involved in the fight! What doesn't make sense is that because I repped a fleetmate, now an otherwise nuetral fleet (that wasn't involved in the original fight) has rights to shoot the logi (and only the logi). And if the fleet defends the logi, the whole fleet will take a sec status hit. This just seems to defeat the whole "crime and punishment" mechanics. What was the crime? Doing my job as a logi in a fight against a criminal fleet.
Aji Usoko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2012-12-07 23:21:57 UTC
Btw... not taking sides at all on the good vs evil (carebear vs pirate) scale. Be a pirate or a carebear. I don't care. That's what great about eve. I'm just saying that CCP is limiting the abilities of logi on the carebear side of the fight (in certain encounters), forcing them to go suspect (and thus forcing fleets in the criminal hunting business to become criminals to defend the logi). Pirates want to be pirates, they certainly don't care. Others might.
Slumpert
Hookers and Quafe
#11 - 2012-12-08 03:17:11 UTC
I must really be doing something wrong because I never had a third fleet show up and not be the first to die anyways.
Kenneth Skybound
Gallifrey Resources
#12 - 2012-12-08 11:16:06 UTC
I can see what is being said here.

Take 3 ships, Criminal (-5), Friend (of the logi) and Logi.

If the friend attacks the criminal, it starts a limited engagement. No sec hit for Friend.

If the logi then reps Friend, Logi gets suspect flag for intruding on a limited engagement, even though Logi can shoot Criminal legally.

It oughtta be "if you can shoot them, you can assist their opponent freely." In the same way "if you can shoot them, you can steal from them freely".

Support OP.
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-12-08 12:36:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Karsa Egivand
This may actually be an issue.

PM/eve-mail the CCP dev responsible and explain the situation and the problems (with 3rd fleet) that arise carefully. Include a link to the thread.

(much more useful than just talking to us)

Anybody know if there would be a downside to just inheriting the fleetmates limited engagement timer? Is it somehow exploitable and bring back neutral-logi shennanigans?
Zhao-luojao Shou
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-12-10 07:31:13 UTC
Aji Usoko wrote:
Griznatch wrote:
So you're upset that when you rep someone in a fight in lowsec, the people you're fighting can shoot you without getting a suspect flag?


No, exactly the opposite. I want the people we're fighting to be able to shoot me—because I'm repping my fleetmates involved in the fight! What doesn't make sense is that because I repped a fleetmate, now an otherwise nuetral fleet (that wasn't involved in the original fight) has rights to shoot the logi (and only the logi). And if the fleet defends the logi, the whole fleet will take a sec status hit. This just seems to defeat the whole "crime and punishment" mechanics. What was the crime? Doing my job as a logi in a fight against a criminal fleet.



i do love how you changed what Griznatch actually said into something you could qq about.
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#15 - 2012-12-10 08:47:48 UTC
I was under the impression that if the Logi pilot was in the same corp as the people he is repping then he won't get the suspect flag for interfering with an L.E.

Not sure if CCP went ahead with that though.

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#16 - 2012-12-10 10:15:09 UTC
Aji Usoko wrote:
Griznatch wrote:
In low sec? Where people can shoot your logi with or without a suspect flag? Or are you upset that your logi has to hide out for a few minutes after the fight before you scamper back into the safety of high sec?


In low sec, people can't shoot you (unless you're a global target) without getting a suspect flag! That's why it's low-sec and not null-sec. And don't want to hide... i want to rep... totally fine shooting and becoming involved in the "limited engagement". I just don't have any guns dude! I'm a logi. So much for trying to having a meaningful conversation about game mechanics.



So... bad....

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Ruvin
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2012-12-10 11:36:30 UTC
Karsa Egivand wrote:
This may actually be an issue.

PM/eve-mail the CCP dev responsible and explain the situation and the problems (with 3rd fleet) that arise carefully. Include a link to the thread.

(much more useful than just talking to us)

Anybody know if there would be a downside to just inheriting the fleetmates limited engagement timer? Is it somehow exploitable and bring back neutral-logi shennanigans?



ITs not an issue for CCP , they even written in theyre blog about this and described this behaviour as OP which is correct .

Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
Doddy
Excidium.
#18 - 2012-12-10 12:56:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Doddy
This was pointed out in development and everyone shrugged, so idk why you are whining now. At least its better than what they were originally going to do where the logi would not get any flag.

The whole point of crimewatch was ccp getting rid of the server having to remember long chains of who is flagged to who. This is why they will not have proliferating limited engagements, it would effectively undo all they designed crimewatch for. Many of us pointed out the negative impact this would have during testing but were ignored.

In the end it doesn't really matter mutch, the mythical neutral lo sec fleet arriving mid engagement is going to go for logis first anyway and half the time the logi will be aiding a suspect in the first place.
Emu Meo
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-12-18 21:53:40 UTC
This issue does seem to defy logic. Take this scenario, corp mates are duelling in a wormhole with a logi repping them. For some reason the logi gets a suspect flag for fifteen minutes, jumps into high sec and then is a target to everyone. The same thing would happen in low sec, why would the logi become a valid target for everyone and the fleet cannot defend back. Say for instance if a fleet was moving from low sec to high sec with logis, this will be a really big issue as the logis can be attacked and if the fleet attack back then they will be concorded.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-12-19 06:07:10 UTC
Isn't just a low sec issue... in high sec there are times this can pop up. Trigger happy people who shoot anything yellow. Seen it happen just as spectator once. Makes no sense really. You're helping someone in combat with a criminal. Guess what... YOU'RE A CRIMINAL TOO, LOL. There really is no reasonable reason for this. Could just as easily change the icon color of people you're in a limited engagement with and bam, no confusion about who you're flagged to. Think they already do this in fact.
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