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lasers vs. hybrids for pvp

Author
Keogan Adsettriel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-12-08 01:41:32 UTC
Hey all I tried to get help in another post but I believe I did not make my questions clear enough enough or perhaps I asked to many at once.

I want to and will be flying small gang for bounty hunting with my friends. One day I will do big fleet ops but not until we get more familiar with the game. So hybrids or lasers? I remember from back in the day, that hybrid weapons had tracking issues and Thayer blasters where not worth the dangers of close combat despite the high damage. Then rails simply didn't have the range or alpha damage to compete with artillery. I kno
w lasers have excellent range and damage, but are they still sub-par to other weapon systems by nature of their em/thermal damage? Thanks for your help, it will help me get pack on path to enjoying this game.
Merouk Baas
#2 - 2012-12-08 01:51:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Merouk Baas
What ships do you prefer, Amarr, Caldari, or Gallente? The ship bonuses for laser or hybrid damage are pretty high and shouldn't really be ignored. The ship kinda determines your weapons more than the other way around.

EDIT: Search for "eve online best PVP ship" and find the more recent threads. I'm seeing a lot of ships all over the place from all the races. Lots of Minmatar, but also lots of the other races.
Keogan Adsettriel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-12-08 03:37:02 UTC
Thanks for the reply I like the gallente background but sadly their slow moving ships combined with their close combat is kind of weird in my mind. I have trained up to battle cruisers in amarr and really like their ships and how lasers look.. while amarr ships are slow, unlike gallente ships they do just fine from what I have read at range. The main issue I have is the fact ray looking aroundoaround online I find so much hate for these two races as being the weaker races, which is annoying because hey are the two teams I like the most.

In the end if it is true and the recent updates did not fix the gallente issue of fall-off and speed I would rather go amarr even though Thierry ships can not cut through armour easily. Would rather take a ship that can manage to get off a few shots as opposed to none at all.

And if both races won't serve me in PvP and I have to switch to either Caldari or mimies (I'd go mimies) I would rather know now than later.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#4 - 2012-12-08 03:40:16 UTC
Hyrbids all the way, especially blasters.

With the exception of T2 scorch users, lasers are strictly a PvE weapon. Their only advantage over all the other weapon system sis that they don't use ammo. That's it, nothing else. Tracking is crap, DPS is crap, and only one fixed damage type that everyone knows to how to easily counter against when they see an Amarr ship coming. PvPers don't need to worry about ammo - the fights are over too fast to care. So just get a blaster tackler and go from there.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Keogan Adsettriel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-12-08 03:42:28 UTC
Alright aol I guess should ditcheck the amarr and stick with gallente :)
Eli Green
The Arrow Project
#6 - 2012-12-08 14:49:52 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Hyrbids all the way, especially blasters.

With the exception of T2 scorch users, lasers are strictly a PvE weapon. Their only advantage over all the other weapon system sis that they don't use ammo. That's it, nothing else. Tracking is crap, DPS is crap, and only one fixed damage type that everyone knows to how to easily counter against when they see an Amarr ship coming. PvPers don't need to worry about ammo - the fights are over too fast to care. So just get a blaster tackler and go from there.


The amount of bias in this post is astounding. Anyway lasers are a decent weapon system, in the short range line dual light pulses, heavy pulses, and megapulses are your goto and are even better with scorch which gives you the ability to kite as well as brawl. The beam line isn't widely used but tachyons on an oracle are fun for sniping in gangs. One thing that also makes them great is that unlike every other weapon system, there is no delay when you switch crystal types, meaning you can adapt to the situation faster. Of course they are heavier on cap use, tracking isn't to great, DPS isn't too good but the projection of the DPS makes up for it, and fixed damage isn't too cool either. But what you do get is options, kiting, sniping, brawling, etc. instead of blasters which pretty much limit you to brawling.

wumbo

Acrel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2012-12-08 15:24:00 UTC
Lasers are a perfectly good weapon system and Katran has no idea what he's talking about.

Lasers have very nice optimals with damage types that many people have fairly weak resists against. The range on Pulse Lasers when loaded with Scorch is better than any of the other racial weapon systems, which means that your Amarr ship will be a lot more versatile than many others. The ability to instantly switch damage types also allows you to easily react to opponents' attempts to control range; as they come closer, you are able to instantly switch to a more damaging crystal, while they are stuck with whatever is originally loaded unless they want to turn off their guns for several seconds.

Lasers are a perfectly viable weapons system. Use them and love them.
Keogan Adsettriel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-12-08 16:35:56 UTC
Acrel wrote:
Lasers are a perfectly good weapon system and Katran has no idea what he's talking about.

Lasers have very nice optimals with damage types that many people have fairly weak resists against. The range on Pulse Lasers when loaded with Scorch is better than any of the other racial weapon systems, which means that your Amarr ship will be a lot more versatile than many others. The ability to instantly switch damage types also allows you to easily react to opponents' attempts to control range; as they come closer, you are able to instantly switch to a more damaging crystal, while they are stuck with whatever is originally loaded unless they want to turn off their guns for several seconds.

Lasers are a perfectly viable weapons system. Use them and love them.



I like this. This sounds good, but don't lasers only have Em and thermal damage? My concern is doesn't most if not all armor resisttresist those damage types?
Utsen Dari
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-12-09 01:59:49 UTC
In general, armor tanked ships tend to have higher resistances against EM and Thermal; and shield tanked ships tend to be weak to those damage types. But there are plenty of exceptions among the tech II and tech III ships (which tend to be tanked most against their faction's racial enemy's weapons, regardless of tank type). And there are plenty of pilots who will fit lots of specific damage type hardeners to make their ship maximally resistant against a type you're not expecting them to resist, to trick you.
Keogan Adsettriel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-12-09 03:15:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Keogan Adsettriel
Utsen Dari wrote:
In general, armor tanked ships tend to have higher resistances against EM and Thermal; and shield tanked ships tend to be weak to those damage types. But there are plenty of exceptions among the tech II and tech III ships (which tend to be tanked most against their faction's racial enemy's weapons, regardless of tank type). And there are plenty of pilots who will fit lots of specific damage type hardeners to make their ship maximally resistant against a type you're not expecting them to resist, to trick you.

This makes tjings even mre confusing! But are you saying that lasers can damage and crack armour hulls?
Edit: sorry for double post.
Keogan Adsettriel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-12-09 03:21:13 UTC
Utsen Dari wrote:
In general, armor tanked ships tend to have higher resistances against EM and Thermal; and shield tanked ships tend to be weak to those damage types. But there are plenty of exceptions among the tech II and tech III ships (which tend to be tanked most against their faction's racial enemy's weapons, regardless of tank type). And there are plenty of pilots who will fit lots of specific damage type hardeners to make their ship maximally resistant against a type you're not expecting them to resist, to trick you.

This makes things even more confusing! But are you saying that lasers can damage and crack armour hulls?
Acrel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2012-12-09 03:51:45 UTC
Yes, lasers can certainly damage armor hulls. They will be more effective against shields usually, but they can get through armor too.
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#13 - 2012-12-09 04:52:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Lost Greybeard
Blasters have much higher damage, railguns have significantly (though, practically, not all THAT much) higher range, and lasers have much more flexible applicability as far as hitting things at various ranges and speeds.

Basically, if you just wanna hit things hard and don't care whether you die half the time, blasters. If you want the option of playing defensive or are just wanting to be able to deal with other people being more mobile than you, lasers are probably more your bag. Neither class of weapons is better than the other on all counts, the choice is highly situational, something you should be used to as an Eve player.

EDIT: If you're worrying about base resists in PvP, you... really should learn a bit more about PvP before dedicating a skill specialty to it.
Keogan Adsettriel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-12-09 15:40:06 UTC
Lost Greybeard wrote:
Blasters have much higher damage, railguns have significantly (though, practically, not all THAT much) higher range, and lasers have much more flexible applicability as far as hitting things at various ranges and speeds.

Basically, if you just wanna hit things hard and don't care whether you die half the time, blasters. If you want the option of playing defensive or are just wanting to be able to deal with other people being more mobile than you, lasers are probably more your bag. Neither class of weapons is better than the other on all counts, the choice is highly situational, something you should be used to as an Eve player.

EDIT: If you're worrying about base resists in PvP, you... really should learn a bit more about PvP before dedicating a skill specialty to it.

Any source you would recomend reading? Everything I read on pvp contradicts what another website posted. And I like the sounds of surviving my engagements. Sorry if that makes me "uncool" but won't be able to replace ships that go boom as easily anymore
Keno Skir
#15 - 2012-12-10 12:36:51 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Hyrbids all the way, especially blasters.

With the exception of T2 scorch users, lasers are strictly a PvE weapon. Their only advantage over all the other weapon system sis that they don't use ammo. That's it, nothing else.


I beg to differ. Less ammo in hold means more cap boosters, slight loss of dps is more than countered by ability to project dps a long way and the fact they dont spend 10 seconds not firing every time they change ammo type. What insta-reload effectively means is that my guns never stop firing and are always pretty much bang on optimal range everywhere.

That said some amarr ships benefit from Projectile weapon fits, but thats just a few of them.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#16 - 2012-12-10 13:57:42 UTC
Different weapon systems, and different ships, have different strategies so it all depends on what strategy you like the most or fits your purpose best. If you over simplify it kinda looks like this.


Gallente:

Gallente turret ships are quite fast and agile meaning they can get their short range weapons to use in the right situation, generally Gall can get the highest dps out of their ships but have trouble applying it (mostly due to range). Also note that their damage types are great for T1 targets but less so for the average T2/T3 target.

blasters are an "in your face" kind of strategy, as such they can do well in solo engagements (although they tend to force you into scram range) and small gangs. They don't do well in large fights due to range issue (targets will forever be outside your effective reach and you'll lose tons of time/cap burning into range). You can kite with blasters if you use Null ammo, but only on specific fits/ships.

Rails works on frigates and on tier 3 BC and BS, medium rails are (in most situations) "crap". On frigs it can work solo but on larger ships it only works in fleets (or the occasional solo sniper). Generally rails aren't used in smaller engagements.


Amarr:

Amarr turret ships tend to be slower and sluggish but well tanked (there are several exceptions) making them less good at "fast in, fast out" solo or small gang gameplay. Generally they're well tanked meaning they can take a hit and live which is very useful in fleets. Downside is that due to a lack of speed/agility and midslots they have difficulty controlling the scenario, they can't outrun or catch up and they can't apply Ewar or tackle much, meaning that they don't' really do too well in solo pvp but they DO excel in gangs and fleets. Lasers have trouble against armor targets but do great against Shield tanked targets (apart from Minnie T2/T3).


Pulse lasers are "decent", their damage is ok, their applied range is good but they use tons of cap to run and may have damage type issues, but when the scenario calls for Scorch ammo then all of a sudden Pulses start to shine with massive range and applied damage at that range.

Beam lasers aren't used a whole lot in pvp, and if used it's almost exclusively Tachyons. They have their use in PVE though, especially when you have to deal with targets at range that are resistant to EM (pulse with scorch for PVE makes sense but it's mostly EM damage, so if you need to fight Guristas for example you're better off with beams as they do more thermal due to different crystals).





So, pick a play style you like that suits your situation and base your decision on that.






Keogan Adsettriel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-12-10 18:08:27 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Different weapon systems, and different ships, have different strategies so it all depends on what strategy you like the most or fits your purpose best. If you over simplify it kinda looks like this.


Gallente:

Gallente turret ships are quite fast and agile meaning they can get their short range weapons to use in the right situation, generally Gall can get the highest dps out of their ships but have trouble applying it (mostly due to range). Also note that their damage types are great for T1 targets but less so for the average T2/T3 target.

blasters are an "in your face" kind of strategy, as such they can do well in solo engagements (although they tend to force you into scram range) and small gangs. They don't do well in large fights due to range issue (targets will forever be outside your effective reach and you'll lose tons of time/cap burning into range). You can kite with blasters if you use Null ammo, but only on specific fits/ships.

Rails works on frigates and on tier 3 BC and BS, medium rails are (in most situations) "crap". On frigs it can work solo but on larger ships it only works in fleets (or the occasional solo sniper). Generally rails aren't used in smaller engagements.


Amarr:

Amarr turret ships tend to be slower and sluggish but well tanked (there are several exceptions) making them less good at "fast in, fast out" solo or small gang gameplay. Generally they're well tanked meaning they can take a hit and live which is very useful in fleets. Downside is that due to a lack of speed/agility and midslots they have difficulty controlling the scenario, they can't outrun or catch up and they can't apply Ewar or tackle much, meaning that they don't' really do too well in solo pvp but they DO excel in gangs and fleets. Lasers have trouble against armor targets but do great against Shield tanked targets (apart from Minnie T2/T3).


Pulse lasers are "decent", their damage is ok, their applied range is good but they use tons of cap to run and may have damage type issues, but when the scenario calls for Scorch ammo then all of a sudden Pulses start to shine with massive range and applied damage at that range.

Beam lasers aren't used a whole lot in pvp, and if used it's almost exclusively Tachyons. They have their use in PVE though, especially when you have to deal with targets at range that are resistant to EM (pulse with scorch for PVE makes sense but it's mostly EM damage, so if you need to fight Guristas for example you're better off with beams as they do more thermal due to different crystals).





So, pick a play style you like that suits your situation and base your decision on that.







Thanks this was very helpful! I am converting to the Amarrian Religion of Lasers and heavy armor. It suits my play style and feels a lot more forgiving for mistakes already compared to gallente rush in an if you muck up your dead. Flying an Arbitrator and I already feel like I am doing much better than I did before.
Doddy
Excidium.
#18 - 2012-12-10 18:49:25 UTC
Its about play style really. Blasters own but you need to get on top of the enemy or you are useless. Autocannons kite. Pulse lasers counter-kite, Artillery has alpha, beam lasers snipe and rails well, are rails.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#19 - 2012-12-10 19:39:31 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Its about play style really. Blasters own but you need to get on top of the enemy or you are useless. Autocannons kite. Pulse lasers counter-kite, Artillery has alpha, beam lasers snipe and rails well, are rails.


^^ This for the most part....

Blasters and Lasers are both excellent weapon systems, each with their pro's and cons... Blasters currently have the best tracking and most DPS, but are range limited.... Lasers have excellent damage projection, and very solid dps... not to mention hit the standard resist hole in shield ships...
Keogan Adsettriel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-12-11 00:09:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Keogan Adsettriel
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Its about play style really. Blasters own but you need to get on top of the enemy or you are useless. Autocannons kite. Pulse lasers counter-kite, Artillery has alpha, beam lasers snipe and rails well, are rails.


^^ This for the most part....

Blasters and Lasers are both excellent weapon systems, each with their pro's and cons... Blasters currently have the best tracking and most DPS, but are range limited.... Lasers have excellent damage projection, and very solid dps... not to mention hit the standard resist hole in shield ships...


I like holes in reistence. How do pulse lasers measure up to blasters? I know they aren't as strong as blasters, but I keap hearing that "scorche" is a godsend to amarr vessles. Though not sure why yet but I am looking it up now.
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