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CCP, you are taking away the meaning of the (Wanted) sign!

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Aurelius Valentius
Valentius Corporation
Valentius Corporation Alliance
#81 - 2012-12-07 16:51:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurelius Valentius
Vincent Athena wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
I would give "wanted" sign only to people who have done a crime that ended in killrights for the victim.


Again: Why?

In the real world bad guys do place bounties on good guys. Prior to Retribution this was also being done in Eve, but it required a person to manually do the verification and payouts. Now the game does that task for them.


You mean a "HIT LIST"... def... maybe we should have "WANTED" for negative sec status, and "MARKED FOR DEATH" for neutral and positive security status. However "Marked for Death" is both a bit long, and might really freak out some people in this game not mentally prepared for such a thing, and CCP could be found liable for sever mental damage, but never mind that, I like this idea even better...

CCP Soundwave [Toon Pic] [Postive Sec. Status] [MARKED FOR DEATH] - example. Info: CCP Soundwave was marked for death by Johnnie "the Potato" Slimkoski Mergatroid Bathbottom Lester Bonnie New Castle Carluchi Sainta Klause of Luton for 1 ISK 5 pence on xx/xx/xxxx for being in the help channel.

then it has MARKED on the ship with a "bulls-eye" and a flashing "MARKED"; and when he blows up... an email... You'se should paid Soundwave... you shoulda paid, we'ves told ya's accidents 'appen. Now look at ya's.
Vixen Soul
Perkone
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-12-07 16:57:21 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Vixen Soul wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
I would give "wanted" sign only to people who have done a crime that ended in killrights for the victim.


Again: Why?

In the real world bad guys do place bounties on good guys. Prior to Retribution this was also being done in Eve, but it required a person to manually do the verification and payouts. Now the game does that task for them.


Right, but bad guys didn't place bounties on every good person in the world.

It's unrealistic. Eve is a sandbox, but it's realistic, and it's immersive. This takes away from the realism.


They don't, because they have no reason to. "For laughs" has never been an acceptable reason in the real world, but it is in EVE, and always has been.


When I think of things players do "for laughs" in EVE, I think can flipping, or suicide ganking, or putting illegal drugs in your mining op's Orca. These are small things you can do to a small amount of people at a time, and there is repercussions for your actions. (Most of the time).

Most of the things people do to troll that have a large impact on the entire player base are changed to discourage that type of behavior. I'm just asking that they discourage trolls from abusing the bounty system by posting small amounts of bounty on people. A bounty should be a large amount of money, and be large enough that it has respectable if not serious connotations.

Make the wanted sign MEAN something. Please.

SoulCreative
Ben Fenix
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#83 - 2012-12-07 17:06:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ben Fenix
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Methelic Mahyisti wrote:
I agree with OP; it's a bit stupid. Bounties should be on criminal and dangerous people, not innocent industrialists.


Lilly Becky
Miner in a Venture


WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


So stupid


How are you defining who is innocent? Is an alliance leader that's never fired a shot but orders thousands of players to go out and kill others innocent? How about the industrialist that builds guns? The definition of innocence is one that I don't want to tie to a single mechanic. You people decide who you think are innocent and who you think are not.


I'm totally with you that it is pretty much impossible to draw a line between those who might be "innocent" and those who might be not. But...

The problem with the current system is that it marks just everyone who has a bounty on him as a criminal. No matter what. And thats not just plain silly but more than unrealistic and even unfair.

CCP, you propagate the fact that a character's reputation in EVE is his most valuable property. But with this patch, you just damaged everyones image who might play the game in a more helpful manner than others. People who are known for their selfless acts of helping other players (especially helping newbies) are now marked as suspicious.

The actual problem with that is that people believe what they see, not what they hear. If there is a new player who might have heard of this helpful guy mentioned before he might want to know more about him and the first impression that he will get from this guy's information window is a big picture of a wanted criminal. Maybe just because some people thought it would be funny to place bounties on him. But this could just ruin a character's reputation in the long term. Because the wanted stamp on his picture is just naturally being associated with terms like "criminal", "fugitive", "thief", "griefer" a.s.o. Thats just normal but non the less is it simply not right.
On the other hand side this person has absolutely no chance of getting rid of this bounty via legal actions. It's a pretty one sided system right now. People in EVE can get rid of their bad security status but not of their bounty? I would say their should be taken a bit more effort in developing a rather fair gameplay mechanic. I don't say make it easy for people to get rid of their bounty but there should at least be a chance for it besides getting blown up.

The bounty hunting system itself as it is right now is a well done first step but nothing more.

But as my last boss told me once: "I don't employ you for giving me problems. I employ you for bringing me solutions." I of course have at least a rough idea for a possible solution.

My suggestion:

Make a kind of contract system out of it. While leaving the bounty information on the character's information window untouched so that everybody can see it, just add the wanted stamp in case the contract for hunting a certain person has been accepted by a bounty hunter.
The downside might be that the person would know when he is hunted (and everyone else too) BUT the uncertainty of when he might be blown up and who is hunting him would still be kept up. In this case he might also be able of hiring mercenaries for his own safety which would just be fair.
But the real deal with this idea is, that his reputation was untouched until he is hunted.

In addition to that we would of course need a game mechanic that gives the character a chance to at least reduce his bounty by legal acts before a bounty hunter is accepting the contract.

So, I would like to hear what you, CCP Soundwave, think of it.

#Soup
Wumpscuut Embryodead
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#84 - 2012-12-07 17:06:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Wumpscuut Embryodead
You=everyone. there is no roleplay. sanbox isn't sandbox when you are funnel'd into a potentional for-profit person because you be seen in a chat. but this isn't limited to being bountied "only because you exist in a chat", it also applies to the fact that a large part of the free will of this game is gone now. if someone even knows that you exist, then suddenly you have these consequences on you. This changes the open world nature of the game and frankly I'm surprised no one brought these basic things up at your meetings.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#85 - 2012-12-07 17:10:03 UTC
dexington wrote:
Vixen Soul wrote:
Hi CCP!

I have a small complaint. I don't like that everyone is spamming eachother with very small amount of bounty. Now everyone has Wanted signs on them. It's cool that people have a bounty on them, but the wanted sign used to say, hey watch out this character might be a little more dangerous and you should be careful with this person. Now all [wanted] means, in my oppinion, is that some noob spammed a 100k bounty on him as a joke.


It would be great with an option to customize the requirements for wanted logo to be shown, i guess some players are only interressed is find players with a high bounty, while other would like to avoid players with a low security standing.


Since the Bounty reward is based on the ship value, the miners with high bounties will actually pay better than the Pirates with High Bounties. Also, 1 Billion or 1 Trillion Bounty; you still collect on the ship. 
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#86 - 2012-12-07 17:11:37 UTC
Vixen Soul wrote:


When I think of things players do "for laughs" in EVE, I think can flipping, or suicide ganking, or putting illegal drugs in your mining op's Orca. These are small things you can do to a small amount of people at a time, and there is repercussions for your actions. (Most of the time).

Most of the things people do to troll that have a large impact on the entire player base are changed to discourage that type of behavior. I'm just asking that they discourage trolls from abusing the bounty system by posting small amounts of bounty on people. A bounty should be a large amount of money, and be large enough that it has respectable if not serious connotations.

Make the wanted sign MEAN something. Please.


There are repercussions for putting bounties on people. I argued for them to be there. Your name gets sent to the person and it says "This person put a bounty on you". Now it's up to you to deal with them.

A bounty should be any amount I decide it needs to be, in proportion with the amount of damage I want to do to you. If I only want someone to blow up a single cruiser of yours, I am going to price accordingly. If they blow up something bigger, that's just a bonus.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#87 - 2012-12-07 17:14:12 UTC
Ben Fenix wrote:


I'm totally with you that it is pretty much impossible to draw a line between those who might be "innocent" and those who might be not. But...

The problem with the current system is that it marks just everyone who has a bounty on him as a criminal. No matter what. And thats not just plain silly but more than unrealistic and even unfair.

CCP, you propagate the fact that a character's reputation in EVE is his most valuable property. But with this patch, you just damaged everyones image who might play the game in a more helpful manner than others. People who are known for their selfless acts of helping other players (especially helping newbies) are now marked as suspicious.

The actual problem with that is that people believe what they see, not what they hear. If there is a new player who might have heard of this helpful guy mentioned before he might want to know more about him and the first impression that he will get from this guy's information window is a big picture of a wanted criminal. Maybe just because some people thought it would be funny to place bounties on him. But this could just ruin a character's reputation in the long term. Because the wanted stamp on his picture is just naturally being associated with terms like "criminal", "fugitive", "thief", "griefer" a.s.o. Thats just normal but non the less is it simply not right.
On the other hand side this person has absolutely no chance of getting rid of this bounty via legal actions. It's a pretty one sided system right now. People in EVE can get rid of their bad security status but not of their bounty? I would say their should be taken a bit more effort in developing a rather fair gameplay mechanic. I don't say make it easy for people to get rid of their bounty but there should at least be a chance for it besides getting blown up.

The bounty hunting system itself as it is right now is a well done first step but nothing more.

But as my last boss told me once: "I don't employ you for giving me problems. I employ you for bringing me solutions." I of course have at least a rough idea for a possible solution.

My suggestion:

Make a kind of contract system out of it. While leaving the bounty information on the character's information window untouched so that everybody can see it, just add the wanted stamp in case the contract for hunting a certain person has been accepted by a bounty hunter.
The downside might be that the person would know when he is hunted (and everyone else too) BUT the uncertainty of when he might be blown up and who is hunting him would still be kept up. In this case he might also be able of hiring mercenaries for his own safety which would just be fair.
But the real deal with this idea is, that his reputation was untouched until he is hunted.

In addition to that we would of course need a game mechanic that gives the character a chance to at least reduce his bounty by legal acts before a bounty hunter is accepting the contract.

So, I would like to hear what you, CCP Soundwave, think of it.



Stop thinking of bounties as being tied to legality. They are entirely and completely divorced from each other. Maybe there should be another term than 'wanted', but in the end all it means is "Someone, somewhere, wants you to blow this person up".

And to that, I say...

"Welcome to EVE"
CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#88 - 2012-12-07 17:16:39 UTC
Wumpscuut Embryodead wrote:
You=everyone. there is no roleplay. sanbox isn't sandbox when you are funnel'd into a potentional for-profit person because you be seen in a chat. but this isn't limited to being bountied "only because you exist in a chat", it also applies to the fact that a large part of the free will of this game is gone now. if someone even knows that you exist, then suddenly you have these consequences on you. This changes the open world nature of the game and frankly I'm surprised no one brought these basic things up at your meetings.


We're well aware of the consequences, they're entirely intended. It's not that no one brought those things up, it's that you and I fundamentally disagree on how this feature should work, which is completely fine.
Vixen Soul
Perkone
Caldari State
#89 - 2012-12-07 17:23:05 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Wumpscuut Embryodead wrote:
You=everyone. there is no roleplay. sanbox isn't sandbox when you are funnel'd into a potentional for-profit person because you be seen in a chat. but this isn't limited to being bountied "only because you exist in a chat", it also applies to the fact that a large part of the free will of this game is gone now. if someone even knows that you exist, then suddenly you have these consequences on you. This changes the open world nature of the game and frankly I'm surprised no one brought these basic things up at your meetings.


We're well aware of the consequences, they're entirely intended. It's not that no one brought those things up, it's that you and I fundamentally disagree on how this feature should work, which is completely fine.


Right. There is, indeed a disagrement on how the feature should work. Clearly the playerbase isn't seeing this system in the way you had intended. Is this what you intended? Retribution of the Trolls expansion? Clearly some changes need to be made.

SoulCreative
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#90 - 2012-12-07 17:24:51 UTC
Vixen Soul wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Wumpscuut Embryodead wrote:
You=everyone. there is no roleplay. sanbox isn't sandbox when you are funnel'd into a potentional for-profit person because you be seen in a chat. but this isn't limited to being bountied "only because you exist in a chat", it also applies to the fact that a large part of the free will of this game is gone now. if someone even knows that you exist, then suddenly you have these consequences on you. This changes the open world nature of the game and frankly I'm surprised no one brought these basic things up at your meetings.


We're well aware of the consequences, they're entirely intended. It's not that no one brought those things up, it's that you and I fundamentally disagree on how this feature should work, which is completely fine.


Right. There is, indeed a disagrement on how the feature should work. Clearly the playerbase isn't seeing this system in the way you had intended. Is this what you intended? Retribution of the Trolls expansion? Clearly some changes need to be made.


Do you speak for the whole playerbase?

80% of everyone I've talked to is pretty happy with this, and I have a very wide circle of contacts.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#91 - 2012-12-07 17:26:31 UTC
Wumpscuut Embryodead wrote:
You=everyone. there is no roleplay. sanbox isn't sandbox when you are funnel'd into a potentional for-profit person because you be seen in a chat. but this isn't limited to being bountied "only because you exist in a chat", it also applies to the fact that a large part of the free will of this game is gone now. if someone even knows that you exist, then suddenly you have these consequences on you. This changes the open world nature of the game and frankly I'm surprised no one brought these basic things up at your meetings.


I heartily endorse this statement.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#92 - 2012-12-07 17:27:53 UTC
In-game consequences for meta-game or out-of-game actions are not a problem.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#93 - 2012-12-07 17:28:56 UTC
Ben Fenix wrote:
[The problem with the current system is that it marks just everyone who has a bounty on him as a criminal. No matter what. And thats not just plain silly but more than unrealistic and even unfair.

CCP, you propagate the fact that a character's reputation in EVE is his most valuable property. But with this patch, you just damaged everyones image who might play the game in a more helpful manner than others. People who are known for their selfless acts of helping other players (especially helping newbies) are now marked as suspicious.

The actual problem with that is that people believe what they see, not what they hear. If there is a new player who might have heard of this helpful guy mentioned before he might want to know more about him and the first impression that he will get from this guy's information window is a big picture of a wanted criminal.



This. ^^

I've lost all my business contracts for selling Fuel Blocks over this so I'm just simply leaving the game until the entire thing is' re-thunked'.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Vixen Soul
Perkone
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-12-07 17:30:14 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Vixen Soul wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Wumpscuut Embryodead wrote:
You=everyone. there is no roleplay. sanbox isn't sandbox when you are funnel'd into a potentional for-profit person because you be seen in a chat. but this isn't limited to being bountied "only because you exist in a chat", it also applies to the fact that a large part of the free will of this game is gone now. if someone even knows that you exist, then suddenly you have these consequences on you. This changes the open world nature of the game and frankly I'm surprised no one brought these basic things up at your meetings.


We're well aware of the consequences, they're entirely intended. It's not that no one brought those things up, it's that you and I fundamentally disagree on how this feature should work, which is completely fine.


Right. There is, indeed a disagrement on how the feature should work. Clearly the playerbase isn't seeing this system in the way you had intended. Is this what you intended? Retribution of the Trolls expansion? Clearly some changes need to be made.


Do you speak for the whole playerbase?

80% of everyone I've talked to is pretty happy with this, and I have a very wide circle of contacts.


Most of the people I've spoken with don't like it.

Camon, why would they like it? You literally took "Wanted" and threw it out the window in terms of connotation and what it means. 100k bounty means absolutely nothing. It means nothing to the person who paid the bounty. It means nothing to the person who has it. It means nothing to the person who receives the reward. (yay, 20k!). All it means is a big ugly WANTED sign that gouges into my fantasy world of having a (good) player.

SoulCreative
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#95 - 2012-12-07 17:32:04 UTC
Vixen Soul wrote:
Right.

IF it meant (I will pay X amount for this person to die), then I would understand the "Wanted" sign.

But in reality, all these 100k and 1m and even 10m bounties mean is (haha, you now have a wanted sign). I have set bounties on players I want to die, and it wasn't a joke bounty of 10m.

That's what I'm saying. If you make bounties 100m minimum for wanted sign, than it means someone WANTS you to die and that you are truely wanted. Not this spam we see now which is just immature trolls thinking they are new and creative by putting a 100k bounty on their friends / everyone they run into.

Right now, it's turned into a game of TAG where we try to tag everyone who doesn't have a bounty on themselves. It's not about paying form someone to die. Let's make this a system where you have to pay a serious valuable amount that bounty hunters will truly pursue.

Getting a bounty on you should mean "Wow, I should be careful who I run into". Not, "Oh, look, now I'm like everyone else".

100m means no more than 1m.

100m only means that people who don't have the isk can't use the system, and that amount of isk isn't something you'll have access to just throw away for some time.

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#96 - 2012-12-07 17:34:51 UTC
Vixen Soul wrote:


Most of the people I've spoken with don't like it.

Camon, why would they like it? You literally took "Wanted" and threw it out the window in terms of connotation and what it means. 100k bounty means absolutely nothing. It means nothing to the person who paid the bounty. It means nothing to the person who has it. It means nothing to the person who receives the reward. (yay, 20k!). All it means is a big ugly WANTED sign that gouges into my fantasy world of having a (good) player.



Kinda weird that I log in this morning in my backwater home system that pretty much always has the same 25 people in it every single day....and all I see this morning is 3 completely unknown entities.

Not sure what this means, but I can certainly speculate.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#97 - 2012-12-07 17:35:36 UTC
Vixen Soul wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Wumpscuut Embryodead wrote:
You=everyone. there is no roleplay. sanbox isn't sandbox when you are funnel'd into a potentional for-profit person because you be seen in a chat. but this isn't limited to being bountied "only because you exist in a chat", it also applies to the fact that a large part of the free will of this game is gone now. if someone even knows that you exist, then suddenly you have these consequences on you. This changes the open world nature of the game and frankly I'm surprised no one brought these basic things up at your meetings.


We're well aware of the consequences, they're entirely intended. It's not that no one brought those things up, it's that you and I fundamentally disagree on how this feature should work, which is completely fine.


Right. There is, indeed a disagrement on how the feature should work. Clearly the playerbase isn't seeing this system in the way you had intended. Is this what you intended? Retribution of the Trolls expansion? Clearly some changes need to be made.

Don't say playerbase.

I do not share your view, as do what seems most people here.

The only problem is that some people have some sort of strange pop culture definition of the word "wanted".
To much Dog or something.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#98 - 2012-12-07 17:37:13 UTC
Ben Fenix wrote:
The problem with the current system is that it marks just everyone who has a bounty on him as a criminal. No matter what. And thats not just plain silly but more than unrealistic and even unfair.

CCP, you propagate the fact that a character's reputation in EVE is his most valuable property. But with this patch, you just damaged everyones image who might play the game in a more helpful manner than others. People who are known for their selfless acts of helping other players (especially helping newbies) are now marked as suspicious.
I don't really care if someone is +5, +6 or more TBH. If I deem then to be worthy enough for a bounty because I want them hunted, then they get a wanted sign. You much like others, are confusing an NPC standing, with a player driven standing mechanic.

In short, suck it up fuzzball.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Vixen Soul
Perkone
Caldari State
#99 - 2012-12-07 17:39:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Vixen Soul
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Vixen Soul wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Wumpscuut Embryodead wrote:
You=everyone. there is no roleplay. sanbox isn't sandbox when you are funnel'd into a potentional for-profit person because you be seen in a chat. but this isn't limited to being bountied "only because you exist in a chat", it also applies to the fact that a large part of the free will of this game is gone now. if someone even knows that you exist, then suddenly you have these consequences on you. This changes the open world nature of the game and frankly I'm surprised no one brought these basic things up at your meetings.


We're well aware of the consequences, they're entirely intended. It's not that no one brought those things up, it's that you and I fundamentally disagree on how this feature should work, which is completely fine.


Right. There is, indeed a disagrement on how the feature should work. Clearly the playerbase isn't seeing this system in the way you had intended. Is this what you intended? Retribution of the Trolls expansion? Clearly some changes need to be made.

Don't say playerbase.

I do not share your view, as do what seems most people here.

The only problem is that some people have some sort of strange pop culture definition of the word "wanted".
To much Dog or something.


Yes, because in the world you live in Wanted doesn't have criminal or high profile connotations to it. You're a Goon. You jump on the bandwagon. I imagine if enough of your friends start not liking the system, you will be right with them.

SoulCreative
Mag's
Azn Empire
#100 - 2012-12-07 17:42:43 UTC
Vixen Soul wrote:
Yes, because in the world you live in Wanted doesn't have criminal or high profile connotations to it.
In the world of Eve, it means I want you dead. No matter what your NPC standings are.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.