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Large bounties, pointless.

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Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-12-07 16:25:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
While everyone's crying about the wanted sign, I just wanted to point out that the guy with 18b on his head is no more worth shooting than the guy with 500m.

Because, from what I understand, you only get 20% of the value of what is destroyed; bounty amount doesn't impact anything other than the number of times you can blow someone up relative to the cost of the what's being destroyed. 100k or 1b, doesn't real mean much.


Once that top 10 spot stops moving, and things settle down, I expect that the most wanted list is going to end up like the old one. Bragging rights.

I am of the belief that this will happen, primarilly because the bounty total doesn't impact the payout in any way; eventually people are going to realise that the most wanted guys aren't worth hunting down. The guy with a few million bounty on him is worth just as much to a bounty hunter as the guys in the top 10 slots.

However, I do understand that the primary reason the top 10 won't matter is because it'll be comprised of people who don't undock, have a large sum of ISK, and put the bounty on themselves. No one ever involved in regular pvp is going to sit at the top of the list, they'll likely be constantly clearing bounties on themselves by doing what they already do.


People keep complaining about "wanted" not meaning anything, and they're the same people that are the reason the bounty system is the way it is. Large bounties would be common and "wanted" would really mean something if your bounty actually modified what a bounty hunter got for blowing you up.

In order to keep you guys from becoming profitable to destroy in high sec the bounty sytem can't payout over the value of your ship, hence only 20% of your value from a pool.

If you guys want meaningful, then let CCP do meaningful. You can't get your cake and eat too. As long as you guys are unwilling to assume some small level of risk in high sec, then tools like the bounty system will always have little meaning there.

If you guys would have been willing to assume that little bit of risk, then the bounty system could have included a modifier that raised the payout on a wanted individual. Sinking a crap ton of money into an individual could have made them profitable as long as the pool exceeded a high enough value.

Not to mention the value in being able to remove AFK miners and bots from the game.
In case you missed it: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=74033
Quote:
The mining ship changes have led to a very large increase in mined volume. The new versions of the ships clearly provide useful mining alternatives to pilots willing to trade off some mining output for a reduced risk of suicide ganks or less workload shoveling ore to a jet can. Of course, the last part means greater opportunities for AFK-mining. That, in turn, probably explains why the Retriever has become the most commonly used mining ship, and also why the increase in mining activity is focused on high-security space.


Who knew buffing the barges would lead to more AFK and bot mining in high sec.

The bounty system could have been an excellent tool.
If only...

In case anyone missed the dev responce in the other thread where I mention having the highest bounties in game increasing the bounty payout percentage:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181188&find=unread
CCP SoniClover wrote:

I think this is a good idea. We had a similar story, but didn't have time to do anything with it for Retribution. I think there should be leverage to increase the payout up to around 30%, for kills on people with high bounty. Killing someone in the top 10 most wanted should definitely count for more.
Gangname Style
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-12-07 16:27:46 UTC
okay.
Gotch Urarse
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#3 - 2012-12-07 16:30:52 UTC
I have little combat PvP xp (unless you count refitting and clone updating), so take what I have w/ a grain of salt.

Just a thought, maybe 20% is to low? If it was higher, closer to 50% value, would that change application? How did CCP come up with 20%? If this was covered in prior threads, I must have missed it.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#4 - 2012-12-07 16:32:01 UTC

Well, the difference is when you put that bounty on yourself, it's not recoverable like it used to be.

So, if you want to pay 50b to be on the top of a list - I guess you can have the money to do that.

I'm sure CCP will come up with a solution for this as it comes, because they do want the best targets on the top. Just give it time and recommendations to improve the system.

Where I am.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-12-07 16:43:05 UTC
Gotch Urarse wrote:
I have little combat PvP xp (unless you count refitting and clone updating), so take what I have w/ a grain of salt.

Just a thought, maybe 20% is to low? If it was higher, closer to 50% value, would that change application? How did CCP come up with 20%? If this was covered in prior threads, I must have missed it.


How about if the higher your bounty got the further up it pushed the payout percentage.

I gues my point kind of boiled down to "it doesn't matter".
People are arguing over the value of being "wanted" and seem to think that it has anything to do with the minimum amount. One billion is no more meaningful a bounty as 100k in high sec.

The only reason for it to be this way is so that you can't profit from it in high sec.

The only reason to not allow us to profit from it in high sec is the players.

And we know which players they are.


I just think people should know who's at fault while they complain to CCP about the meaningfulness of the bounty system, and being wanted.
Othran
Route One
#6 - 2012-12-07 16:44:55 UTC
Large personal bounties are mainly useless.

Corp bounties however are a different matter - just like wardecs its only a matter of time until someone forgets and undocks something shiny and entirely inappropriate for the situation Lol
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#7 - 2012-12-07 16:50:07 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
While everyone's crying about the wanted sign, I just wanted to point out that the guy with 18b on his head is no more worth shooting than the guy with 500m.

Because, from what I understand, you only get 20% of the value of what is destroyed; bounty amount doesn't impact anything other than the number of times you can blow someone up relative to the cost of the what's being destroyed. 100k or 1b, doesn't real mean much.


Once that top 10 spot stops moving, and things settle down, I expect that the most wanted list is going to end up like the old one. Bragging rights.

I am of the belief that this will happen, primarilly because the bounty total doesn't impact the payout in any way; eventually people are going to realise that the most wanted guys aren't worth hunting down. The guy with a few million bounty on him is worth just as much to a bounty hunter as the guys in the top 10 slots.

However, I do understand that the primary reason the top 10 won't matter is because it'll be comprised of people who don't undock, have a large sum of ISK, and put the bounty on themselves. No one ever involved in regular pvp is going to sit at the top of the list, they'll likely be constantly clearing bounties on themselves by doing what they already do.


People keep complaining about "wanted" not meaning anything, and they're the same people that are the reason the bounty system is the way it is. Large bounties would be common and "wanted" would really mean something if your bounty actually modified what a bounty hunter got for blowing you up.

In order to keep you guys from becoming profitable to destroy in high sec the bounty sytem can't payout over the value of your ship, hence only 20% of your value from a pool.

If you guys want meaningful, then let CCP do meaningful. You can't get your cake and eat too. As long as you guys are unwilling to assume some small level of risk in high sec, then tools like the bounty system will always have little meaning there.

If you guys would have been willing to assume that little bit of risk, then the bounty system could have included a modifier that raised the payout on a wanted individual. Sinking a crap ton of money into an individual could have made them profitable as long as the pool exceeded a high enough value.

Not to mention the value in being able to remove AFK miners and bots from the game.
In case you missed it: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=74033
Quote:
The mining ship changes have led to a very large increase in mined volume. The new versions of the ships clearly provide useful mining alternatives to pilots willing to trade off some mining output for a reduced risk of suicide ganks or less workload shoveling ore to a jet can. Of course, the last part means greater opportunities for AFK-mining. That, in turn, probably explains why the Retriever has become the most commonly used mining ship, and also why the increase in mining activity is focused on high-security space.


Who knew buffing the barges would lead to more AFK and bot mining in high sec.

The bounty system could have been an excellent tool.
If only...


Posting in stealth nerf hi-sec thread 8907654312

What does hi-sec have to do with how the bounty system is broken? Same mechanics for low/high with the exception you have to do a little math to make sure you do enough dps before concord and that the gank is profitable.
Derek Quaid
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-12-07 16:51:36 UTC
Gotch Urarse wrote:
I have little combat PvP xp (unless you count refitting and clone updating), so take what I have w/ a grain of salt.

Just a thought, maybe 20% is to low? If it was higher, closer to 50% value, would that change application? How did CCP come up with 20%? If this was covered in prior threads, I must have missed it.

The old bounty system was simply a way of giving money to your target. The player would pod himself with an alt and walk away with the money. Tying the payout per kill to destroyed ISK value means that making a profit would require market manipulations similar to what the Goons did to game the FW system.

Now, CCP has supposedly changed the way in which item values are calculated to mitigate manipulations of value-based payouts, and I imagine the low percentage is a further buffer in that respect.

I find the system rather ingeniuos in having to essentially destroy 5x the bounty value to fully clear the bounty. This will result in targets being inconvenienced more than once or being chased down in their most pimped ships in hopes of a one-time sweep of an entire bounty.

Regardless of whether the payout calculations are satisfactory, however, be sure to avoid retaliatory bounties by placing your bounty anonymously through Discreet Bounties.

CEO, Discreet Bounties In-game Channel: Discreet Bounties
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-12-07 16:52:44 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:

Well, the difference is when you put that bounty on yourself, it's not recoverable like it used to be.

So, if you want to pay 50b to be on the top of a list - I guess you can have the money to do that.

I'm sure CCP will come up with a solution for this as it comes, because they do want the best targets on the top. Just give it time and recommendations to improve the system.

The people in the top spots weren't recovering the bounty.

What is a few billion virtual numbers in a game where I have several billion?
Not to mention that putting 20 billion on myself, and flying around, doesn't make me any more viable a target as the guy with 10 million right next to me, if we're both flying cheap ships.

There's no reason to shoot the guy with the higher bounty if it's not going to effect your payout.

There's no way to fix it. Even if it expired, if someone's going to put it up once, they'll likely do it again. There's nothing that can be done to get around it. You can only hope to get as many people into the system as you can, so that it has an opportunity to be used.

But my point laid more in the area of it not mattering as long as you can't profit from it in high sec.
If you want it to matter, then it needs to be able to be used to allow for a profit, even if it's a little profit based off of multi-billion isk bounties. Then the top 10 guys may actually end up being real bounty targets.

I'm sure people would invest to curb the afk and bot mining that CCP confirmed the barge and exhumaer buffs dramatically increased.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#10 - 2012-12-07 16:54:01 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Gotch Urarse wrote:
I have little combat PvP xp (unless you count refitting and clone updating), so take what I have w/ a grain of salt.

Just a thought, maybe 20% is to low? If it was higher, closer to 50% value, would that change application? How did CCP come up with 20%? If this was covered in prior threads, I must have missed it.


How about if the higher your bounty got the further up it pushed the payout percentage.

I gues my point kind of boiled down to "it doesn't matter".
People are arguing over the value of being "wanted" and seem to think that it has anything to do with the minimum amount. One billion is no more meaningful a bounty as 100k in high sec.

The only reason for it to be this way is so that you can't profit from it in high sec.

The only reason to not allow us to profit from it in high sec is the players.

And we know which players they are.


I just think people should know who's at fault while they complain to CCP about the meaningfulness of the bounty system, and being wanted.



Rather than making blanket statements about high sec dwellers and assuming your conclusion is the only correct one, try remembering something else. If payouts increased dependant on the size of the bounty pool, the system would be hilariously open to abuse by large alliances with a penchant for bending/abusing the rules, or those with an excess of real life cash to spend.

Do you want EVE to be pay to win?

Personally I'd rather people had to make some kind of effort at least some of the time.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-12-07 16:57:24 UTC
Othran wrote:
Large personal bounties are mainly useless.

Corp bounties however are a different matter - just like wardecs its only a matter of time until someone forgets and undocks something shiny and entirely inappropriate for the situation Lol

I don't deny this at all, and presonally feeel this is probably the single best feature of retribution.

HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:

Posting in stealth nerf hi-sec thread 8907654312

What does hi-sec have to do with how the bounty system is broken? Same mechanics for low/high with the exception you have to do a little math to make sure you do enough dps before concord and that the gank is profitable.

Didn't think it was very stealthy at all. Thought I was being pretty obvious.

While I'm not asking for anything, I am saying that high sec is the reason the bounty system works how it works.

Nor did I ever say broken.
Only it won't have a lot of meaning IN high sec, and that large bounties are irrelevant regardless of where you are due to the payout mechanic; which is the way it is because of high sec. I didn't think I sugar coated.
Alara IonStorm
#12 - 2012-12-07 16:57:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Gotch Urarse wrote:
I have little combat PvP xp (unless you count refitting and clone updating), so take what I have w/ a grain of salt.

Just a thought, maybe 20% is to low? If it was higher, closer to 50% value, would that change application? How did CCP come up with 20%? If this was covered in prior threads, I must have missed it.

Make it 50% and Bounties become pointless to anyone with an Alt / Friend and a waste to the player who put them up.

Buy Battlecruiser, Fully insure it, fill with mods of inflated value for a bit extra and have alt shoot it. Bounty + Insurance = Payday for the guy with a price on his head and inflated mods = cherry on top.

I am under the opinion Insurance should not be a thing in this game and instead newbie rewards for Level 1 / 2 Missions + low end belt / mission rat bounties should be increased. Then player bounty payout can be increased.

BTW the system should show the full bounty and how much you stand to gain from ship destruction.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-12-07 17:00:13 UTC
The difference is that somebody with a big bounty is stuck with a dilemma: they can either confine themselves to cheaper ships, or they can accept that while flying the more expensive ones, people are likely to want a piece of them. Again and again and again.

They guys at the top of the list are going to have their flight habits, preferred ships, tactics and hangouts studied in detail, and then somebody will show up with the perfect gang to slaughter them when they're at their most juicy. If they want to avoid being that kind of a target, they need to confine themselves to cheap ships. Which will just attract the second tier of bounty hunter who don't feel able to take on a faction-fit rattlesnake, but feel well up to taking on a Tech 2 HAM drake.

Don't let the 20% fool you. The advantage to a big bounty is that by the time it becomes small enough to not attract attention again, the mark will have lost upwards of four times the value of the bounty on their head.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-12-07 17:03:14 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:


Rather than making blanket statements about high sec dwellers and assuming your conclusion is the only correct one, try remembering something else. If payouts increased dependant on the size of the bounty pool, the system would be hilariously open to abuse by large alliances with a penchant for bending/abusing the rules, or those with an excess of real life cash to spend.

Do you want EVE to be pay to win?

Personally I'd rather people had to make some kind of effort at least some of the time.

But it's a "blanket" issue.

It works how it works so that you can't profit from it in high sec. It's not a conspiracy.

In fact, I'm confident enough to say that I don't think a Dev would tell me I'm wrong. I believe whole heartedly that they would indeed say that it's designed around the 20% payout because it prevents bounties in high sec from being used to make ganking profitable. If you made it profitable, it would happen more, and they've been pretty clear that they fully intended for the new bounty system to NOT cause more ganking.

Now call me nutty, but all that is directly related to only one area of the game, high sec.

I'm saying, I disagree with that. It should be able to be used to make a profit, explicitly so that it can encourage a gank.

The mining buff impacted the game, and not a little bit.
CCP varified it.
The bounty system could have been the tool to counter AFK and bot mining in high sec.
Mathrin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-12-07 17:04:34 UTC
Gotch Urarse wrote:
I have little combat PvP xp (unless you count refitting and clone updating), so take what I have w/ a grain of salt.

Just a thought, maybe 20% is to low? If it was higher, closer to 50% value, would that change application? How did CCP come up with 20%? If this was covered in prior threads, I must have missed it.



They need to make sure the bounty payout plus insurance payout is not greater than the ship value. We all know what happens thenWhat?
CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#16 - 2012-12-07 17:04:58 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
While everyone's crying about the wanted sign, I just wanted to point out that the guy with 18b on his head is no more worth shooting than the guy with 500m.

Because, from what I understand, you only get 20% of the value of what is destroyed; bounty amount doesn't impact anything other than the number of times you can blow someone up relative to the cost of the what's being destroyed. 100k or 1b, doesn't real mean much.


Once that top 10 spot stops moving, and things settle down, I expect that the most wanted list is going to end up like the old one. Bragging rights.

I am of the belief that this will happen, primarilly because the bounty total doesn't impact the payout in any way; eventually people are going to realise that the most wanted guys aren't worth hunting down. The guy with a few million bounty on him is worth just as much to a bounty hunter as the guys in the top 10 slots.

However, I do understand that the primary reason the top 10 won't matter is because it'll be comprised of people who don't undock, have a large sum of ISK, and put the bounty on themselves. No one ever involved in regular pvp is going to sit at the top of the list, they'll likely be constantly clearing bounties on themselves by doing what they already do.


People keep complaining about "wanted" not meaning anything, and they're the same people that are the reason the bounty system is the way it is. Large bounties would be common and "wanted" would really mean something if your bounty actually modified what a bounty hunter got for blowing you up.

In order to keep you guys from becoming profitable to destroy in high sec the bounty sytem can't payout over the value of your ship, hence only 20% of your value from a pool.

If you guys want meaningful, then let CCP do meaningful. You can't get your cake and eat too. As long as you guys are unwilling to assume some small level of risk in high sec, then tools like the bounty system will always have little meaning there.

If you guys would have been willing to assume that little bit of risk, then the bounty system could have included a modifier that raised the payout on a wanted individual. Sinking a crap ton of money into an individual could have made them profitable as long as the pool exceeded a high enough value.

Not to mention the value in being able to remove AFK miners and bots from the game.
In case you missed it: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=74033
Quote:
The mining ship changes have led to a very large increase in mined volume. The new versions of the ships clearly provide useful mining alternatives to pilots willing to trade off some mining output for a reduced risk of suicide ganks or less workload shoveling ore to a jet can. Of course, the last part means greater opportunities for AFK-mining. That, in turn, probably explains why the Retriever has become the most commonly used mining ship, and also why the increase in mining activity is focused on high-security space.


Who knew buffing the barges would lead to more AFK and bot mining in high sec.

The bounty system could have been an excellent tool.
If only...


I disagree, it has a much bigger impact. If you had a single bounty on you, you'd be out of the fire easily. If you have a big bounty on you, you'll be hunted for a long time.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-12-07 17:06:18 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
The difference is that somebody with a big bounty is stuck with a dilemma: they can either confine themselves to cheaper ships, or they can accept that while flying the more expensive ones, people are likely to want a piece of them. Again and again and again.

They guys at the top of the list are going to have their flight habits, preferred ships, tactics and hangouts studied in detail, and then somebody will show up with the perfect gang to slaughter them when they're at their most juicy. If they want to avoid being that kind of a target, they need to confine themselves to cheap ships. Which will just attract the second tier of bounty hunter who don't feel able to take on a faction-fit rattlesnake, but feel well up to taking on a Tech 2 HAM drake.

Don't let the 20% fool you. The advantage to a big bounty is that by the time it becomes small enough to not attract attention again, the mark will have lost upwards of four times the value of the bounty on their head.

The guys at the top of the list dont' care.

Why do you guys seem to think that everyone who plays EVE, does flying in space? There's an entire group of us that rarely, if ever, undocks.

Why would my jita alt be impeded by a 100b isk bounty?
Do you have any idea how many jita alts there are, or how much money they have?
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-12-07 17:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
The obvious solution being, "don't put bounties on Jita alts"

Or are you saying we need WiS PvP? Cool

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-12-07 17:09:11 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:


I disagree, it has a much bigger impact. If you had a single bounty on you, you'd be out of the fire easily. If you have a big bounty on you, you'll be hunted for a long time.

I do agree.

But at some point, whether it be several billion or several hundred million or few billion, that number kind of loses it's merits.

I expect to see guys with bounties high enough to be considered permenant, I don't expect those guys to be the dudes flying a titan.
Casirio
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-12-07 17:10:53 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


However, I do understand that the primary reason the top 10 won't matter is because it'll be comprised of people who don't undock, have a large sum of ISK, and put the bounty on themselves. No one ever involved in regular pvp is going to sit at the top of the list, they'll likely be constantly clearing bounties on themselves by doing what they already do.


Exhale. alliance is in top 10 most wanted alliances with 2.6 bil on our head. we've been roaming all over, stirring up fights and local comments about our bounty. The whole thing is great, and leads to more pvp. our KB speaks differently than what you think its all about..
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