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The Killright system stinks and here's why.

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Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-12-07 15:08:22 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Suvetar
Theres no guarentee a killright purchased can be claimed. Not through any mechanic the purchaser has to do with. (IE pvp skill)

It requires an activation to use which immediately notifies the target of who activated it. The activation lasts for 15 minutes. On top of the amateur local intel chat you now have a second form of free intel in a system advertised to bring new life to pvp. The double fail safe of local chat and the notification means almost all of the potential fights that could happen won't. The act of Retribution will be one of so rare occurence as to be almost non existent. Ill back up my claim. Someone drop a few billion bounty on me. You'll never ever get one killmail that was directly linked to someone exacting your revenge. You may eventually reward someone who happened to kill me in a fleet battle. But thats hardly Retribution now is it?

It's exploitable to the degree its a fail safe guarenteed way of scamming anyone remotely interested in bounty hunting. There is no way to avoid the scam. You either buy the killright or don't and whether you get to use it or not is completely out of your hands. This will become more prevalent as time goes on and more people catch on to this fact. Eventually the system will be a scam infested waste of time.

The expansions biggest feature is a big fat pile of fail. Just like Incarna.

Edit: Snipped off-topic comments - ISD Suvetar
Tor Mitchel
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-12-07 15:14:27 UTC
You've done a lovely job of expressing your opinion, but have failed to state exactly how it fails.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#3 - 2012-12-07 15:18:38 UTC
People for Years have whined for sell-able kill rights.

Now they have it.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Mirima Thurander
#4 - 2012-12-07 15:20:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirima Thurander
Say your clocked 10km from a target, the moment you purchase the kill right he gets A pop up.

If he's in something he doesn't want to lose he will immediately run away.





Or if its a scam to start with buying the kill right is the scam, aka u shoot your friend he sets the kill right to 20million
Them moment the kill right is activated u safe up for 15 mins.


The point he's making is why warn them there fixing to get there face shot off.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Mirima Thurander
#5 - 2012-12-07 15:22:44 UTC
You missed his point the systems fine besides the one part that warns your target before you even open fire.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#6 - 2012-12-07 15:23:16 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Theres no guarentee a killright purchased can be claimed. Not through any mechanic the purchaser has to do with. (IE pvp skill)

It requires an activation to use which immediately notifies the target of who activated it. The activation lasts for 15 minutes. On top of the amateur local intel chat you now have a second form of free intel in a system advertised to bring new life to pvp. The double fail safe of local chat and the notification means almost all of the potential fights that could happen won't. The act of Retribution will be one of so rare occurence as to be almost non existent. Ill back up my claim. Someone drop a few billion bounty on me. You'll never ever get one killmail that was directly linked to someone exacting your revenge. You may eventually reward someone who happened to kill me in a fleet battle. But thats hardly Retribution now is it?


when someone activates a kill right on you the suspect timer starts ticking and there's a subtle notify saying "Kill right activated on you. You can temporarily be attacked without CONCORD intervention."

only to explain why you're now a suspect

it doesn't tell you who activated it, so I'm not sure where you're going with this.

people just have to make sure not to activate a kill right on someone where and when they can quickly dock or escape

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#7 - 2012-12-07 15:26:59 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
people just have to make sure not to activate a kill right on someone where and when they can quickly dock or escape


This.

It's really no different than if you were sitting around in a low or null sec system and someone jumps into local. There is a subtle intel change and you have the option to try and react fast enough.

If you get on grid with the offending person and cue up tackle at the moment before buying the kill right you can immediately tackle. Most players will not be able to react fast enough unless they are on gate or within a docking perimeter.

#workingasintended

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#8 - 2012-12-07 15:28:46 UTC
Yup wacktopia has it right. I mean god forbid you should actually have to think before trying to kill someone Roll

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#9 - 2012-12-07 15:31:38 UTC
Yesterday some friends saw a freighter undock from Jita with a buyable kill right. Neither the freighter or the kill right still exist.

Oops.

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Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-12-07 15:35:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
If you know you're hunted you know to dock up. But you know that already. Who's actually hunting you is somewhat irrelevant. I know there is some grey area in the discussion so ill ask this question.

Why have a 15 minute timer and a notice at all? If you attacked and killed someone that earned a killright and the expansion pack is meant to allow Retribution for those acts why are these systems in place?

Why does a normal killright have none of those safeguards in place? Why is there no timer? I think its because ultimately the new system is just hype. You don't really want anyone to die in a way they didn't see coming. Thats called nonconsensual pvp by the way. Its what EVE is hyped to be all about. You can't use bubbles in high sec so essentially the new system is a glorified way to what? Kill someone on a gate or station that just so happened to be there when you were? Thats bounty hunting? Maybe thats CCPs idea of bounty hunting that provides a way to safeguard the anti non consensual pvp crowd but its not what your pvp players wanted. We wanted the option to buy or accept a killright, and complete discretion in how and where we dealt with the target. No warnings, no timers, just stalk and engage.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-12-07 15:41:50 UTC
it's pretty simple. Don't get them near stargates and stations where they can dock. fly in, lock them up, activate the killright then hit the points and damage the second they're flagged. If somebody joins in to assist them, they also earn a suspect flag.

Sure, the KR sell system is potentially scammable, but the same rules applies to KR scam as to any other - be on the lookout for them, and don't be a derp.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-12-07 15:44:10 UTC
Good luck finding anyone with a killright redeemable in the only place it matters, high sec, anywhere that isn't near a station or stargate.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-12-07 15:53:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Vincent Athena wrote:
Yesterday some friends saw a freighter undock from Jita with a buyable kill right. Neither the freighter or the kill right still exist.

Oops.


Fraps or it didn't happen. That being said though, how often is that going to occur? 99% of the time its going to be a game of chase the guy with the killright in his frigate until he's killed and the killmail no longer exists. Because with a 15 minute window of opportunity the chance of any real preparation and catching of people off guard and in something worthwhile Retributing against isn't going to happen.

Im sure the most inane of the playerbase will fall but you won't catch any real target thats knows the game with this system.

The whole design of the killright system, letting the target know by hook or crook he has a purchaseable killright as opposed to just a killright as the old system did is completely nullifying the whole purpose of the feature.
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#14 - 2012-12-07 15:57:40 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Yesterday some friends saw a freighter undock from Jita with a buyable kill right. Neither the freighter or the kill right still exist.

Oops.


Fraps or it didn't happen. That being said though, how often is that going to occur? 99% of the time its going to be a game of chase the guy with the killright in his frigate until he's killed and the killmail no longer exists. Because with a 15 minute window of opportunity the chance of any real preparation and catching of people off guard and in something worthwhile Retributing against isn't going to happen.

Im sure the most inane of the platerbase will fall but you won't catch any real target thats knows the game with this system.


do all the prepping before you activate and then you have 15 minutes to do the killingCool

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Dragon Outlaw
Rogue Fleet
#15 - 2012-12-07 15:57:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Dragon Outlaw
CCP should just extend the killright to 15 days. Like sex, the hunt is more pleasant when it last a long time...

As a hunter, I prefer to have the prey know it is being hunted. Mouhahahaha!!!
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-12-07 15:59:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Yesterday some friends saw a freighter undock from Jita with a buyable kill right. Neither the freighter or the kill right still exist.

Oops.


Fraps or it didn't happen. That being said though, how often is that going to occur? 99% of the time its going to be a game of chase the guy with the killright in his frigate until he's killed and the killmail no longer exists. Because with a 15 minute window of opportunity the chance of any real preparation and catching of people off guard and in something worthwhile Retributing against isn't going to happen.

Im sure the most inane of the platerbase will fall but you won't catch any real target thats knows the game with this system.


do all the prepping before you activate and then you have 15 minutes to do the killingCool



The whole design of the killright system, letting the target know by hook or crook he has a purchaseable killright as opposed to just a killright as the old system did is completely nullifying the whole purpose of the feature.

You knew if someone could kill you. But you didnt know nor should you know if that person has made available the right to kill you to others. Obviously the system wasn't in place to allow others to bring Retribution to you but the argument stands.

And thats my greater point. Why keep building pvp features that ultimately have a fail safe opt out system? If you can make the argument that an innocent needs protecting, fine. How can you include someone that earned the right to be killed in Retribution with that same level of protection?
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#17 - 2012-12-07 16:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
No one bothered to fraps it. I did see the KM, so I believe it did happen. The 4 ships that killed the freighter could not have done it if it was a suicide gank (insufficient dps to drop a freighter at Jita before CONCORD calls), so the freighter must have been a valid target.

One oddity: The freighter dropped a battleship, tritanium and pyerite. Before it could be recovered a Jita vulture salvaged the wreck. The cans that were left were yellow, and could not be recovered without the freighter doing the recovery becoming a suspect. Is this the intent? I thought what was dropped by a suspect was free for all. Note that the wreck was not yellow, it was the can left after the salvage that was yellow.
Edit: There is no way to hide the fact that I have a purchasable killright on me from me. It shows on the overview, as it must so other players can know about it giving them the opportunity to activate it. If I have any doubt, all I need to is ask a friend if I show up on the overview as having a purchasable killright.

So Caliph, how do you propose this information be hidden from the target so there is absolutely no way for him to know about it?

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Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-12-07 16:35:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Vincent Athena wrote:
No one bothered to fraps it. I did see the KM, so I believe it did happen. The 4 ships that killed the freighter could not have done it if it was a suicide gank (insufficient dps to drop a freighter at Jita before CONCORD calls), so the freighter must have been a valid target.

One oddity: The freighter dropped a battleship, tritanium and pyerite. Before it could be recovered a Jita vulture salvaged the wreck. The cans that were left were yellow, and could not be recovered without the freighter doing the recovery becoming a suspect. Is this the intent? I thought what was dropped by a suspect was free for all. Note that the wreck was not yellow, it was the can left after the salvage that was yellow.
Edit: There is no way to hide the fact that I have a purchasable killright on me from me. It shows on the overview, as it must so other players can know about it giving them the opportunity to activate it. If I have any doubt, all I need to is ask a friend if I show up on the overview as having a purchasable killright.

So Caliph, how do you propose this information be hidden from the target so there is absolutely no way for him to know about it?


Make the transfer of killrights completely discrete between two parties. The victim and their hired Retribution. No warnings to the original aggressor, no notifications. Nothing. The killright expires on the date it would normally expire, basically as normal but the killmail is transfered from one persons record to the hired gun/corp. The original aggressor maintains the same level of knowledge they had before which is that they've killed an innocent and could face retaliation. They'd just lack the knowledge of how or when that will come. They would have the original date of course to know when they are in the clear.

As such the original aggressor could more safely fly knowing the entire EVE universe can't activate their public killright on a whim. Which would result in increased likelyhood of the aggressor flying something worth killing while at the same time giving more ability for the bounty hunters to carefully plan and execute the Retribution.

Maybe make killrights like corporate shares, a physical object in which only one can exist per incident. It can be sold to the individual or the corporation alliance and is good until its expired or redeemed.
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-12-07 16:55:17 UTC
Quote:
If you know you're hunted you know to dock up. But you know that already. Who's actually hunting you is somewhat irrelevant. I know there is some grey area in the discussion so ill ask this question.


sorry - admit that you were wrong. You said the target would know who when in fact, they will NOT know who. At least not through the notification.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#20 - 2012-12-07 16:56:07 UTC
In null sec you get a warning when someone else enters local. In high sec you get a warning when someone activates kill rights on you. What is the issue here?

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
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