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Let's not forget the T1 mining barges:

The Covetor was fairly useless before the changes (due to the SP requirements being nearly the same as the Hulk) and remains fairly useless after the changes, due to the buffs to the Retriever and Procurer.

The Retriever used to have a mining efficiency of 2/3 of a Covetor. Now, it is about 83% of a max-skilled Covetor, despite the fact that the Covetor has an extra turret (which still makes no sense to me). The cargohold buff makes it perfect for AFK mining, and it even tanks better than before. Sure, it isn't a Mack, but it also costs a lot less to replace when it inevitably gets ganked - esp. if you were smart enough to stock up prior to the BPO changes, when they cost around 7-8M each.

The Procurer used to have a mining efficiency of 1/3 of a Covetor or 1/2 of a Retriever. Now, the Procurer is equal to the Retriever. The cargohold isn't as good as the Retriever, but it is still much larger than the old Covetor - so, it, too, can now be used for AFK mining. And, it has an absurd tank. Again, not quite a Skiff, but much, much cheaper - pre-buff, the Procurer cost around 2M each. Thanks to the massive oversupply, they are still available for dirt cheap prices. To add insult to injury, a Procurer with a single strip miner or ice harvester can mine as well as a Retriever with 2 strips/harvesters , so even the fitting cost is lower.

Both the Retriever and Procurer can now be used effectively for ice mining, thanks to the new cargoholds. Pre-buff - not so much, since they didn't have the turret bonuses and, even with cargo expanders, the old ships could not hold much ice.

A Retriever can still be ganked by a solo dessie (esp. since most miners fit for max efficiency, not max tank). But, I don't think you can cost effectively gank a Procurer (by which I mean ensuring that the victim suffers greater loss of ISK than the ganker). Maybe with a fleet of noob ships... but, you are certainly not going to want to use a Tornado to pop a Procurer.

And, finally, the SP requirements for getting into a T1 mining barge are pretty darn low - less than 1 week - making high sec AFK mining all that much easier for everyone.

With the AI improvements making level 4 missions a lot harder (aka stealth level 4 mission nerf), there should be much less isk coming onto the market. Additionally, the new bounty system is already working as a quality isk sink (unless this is just a phase that people are going through because they can).

Pre Inferno
Players: "CCP these mining barge changes are a bad idea, Mackinaw is too good seeing as it has good enough tank to avoid getting ganked meaning only the most paranoid will ever use the Skiff, the biggest ore bay, and enough yield that it's still very competitive against the Hulk for considerably less effort."
CCP: "But teiricide! Roles! Ganking was never meant to be profitable!"

Post Inferno:
Players: "Look CCP, all we see now are Mackinaws everywhere, Hulks are used FAR less than they were before and Mackinaws got a disproportionally large boost. Two Mackinaws get better yield than a Hulk + Orca with full fleet boosts, and even players in large mining fleets mine in Mackinaws often for convenience."
CCP: *silence*

Post Retribution:
CCP: "Look, players! We've evaluated the mining barge changes, and we've made this pretty graph that confirms what you said about the Mackinaw. Not only that, but we've shown that this barge change has had no significant effect on mining anywhere outside of highsec. We like the way this turned out!"
Players: "WTF, how could you possibly look at that data and say you're HAPPY with these changes?"


Switch the EHP of the Mackinaw and the Hulk. Problem fixed.

People Please - I think CCP have fixed some of the things you were talking about.

I dumped my Hulks and started Using Macks. I did this because - Although I have always used a Tank on my ships - i'm in faction warfare - see my other posts - Mining was a pain due to constant trips to the station. It's like constant trips to the toilet on a night out - irritating but necessary. The Mack's mineral hold was an epic gift - it helped make mining FUN - you know?.

A lot of people draw a connection between bigger holds and bots. Well maybe. I feel the negative connection is more likely between a bigger hold and more AFK. But what manifest itself for me was more mining - because I hated leaving my stop to go back to the station all the time. I hated even using Industrials - load them - return - dump - out to fleet - load - return - dump - etc - etc - it - isn't - fun.

Industrials were OK in the olden days - but only for limited amounts of time - I couldn't stand more than an holur of it - The Mack removed this tedium somewhat. But also made the industrial less relevant to mining operations - even a DST isn't big enough - and my Orca isn't really big enough anymore. . .

I want to mine for about 1.5 hours - typically - same as a LvL 4 mission and salvage. I don't like the constant trips to the station from the old mining.

BUT NOW. . . . Now I can use a Freighter!!!! I'm going to swap back to Hulks - really - for Mining Operations. If I'm AFKing one account whilst the others do something else I'll take a Mack. If I'm going to Lo Sec I'll take a Skiff - or I'll try this new mining frigate!

They're are all options now. A new King was crowned with the Mack - but the Hulk IS coming back for gangs. Just a shame we lost a specific Ice Ship. . .

Yeah unless they were reprosessed shortly after to gain free minerals.....


Hulk is broken
I wont bother undocking in one again. To small ore hold compared to outputt.
Who in their rigth mind would pay atention to mining....

This is the worst idea I've ever read. Enjoy your idiot penalty.


Yep!



This was covered already. The drone regions provided a huge amount of minerals, which allowed demand to grow very, very large. The increase in mining doesn't even come close to providing enough supply.

actually, it would be a viable fix. as i pointed out earlier, the mackinaw has the worst of nothing and the hulk has the worst of two "roles" therefore it's a pretty logical change that would also add a certain level of risk to afk mining by making them more vulnerable to people who want to gank afk miners.

Quoted For Truth

Or you could just give the easiest exhumer the weakest tank, so that miners will have a choice of easy tank, convenience of ore capacity, or high yield, instead of having an extremely favorable combination centered on a single ship.

CCP was going after automated botters. People using programs, and even fake clients, to completely automate the mining process. In essence, computers posing as actual players. There was never any intention to eliminate AFK mining by real players.