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Tech 1 logistics are the straw that broke the Tech Camel's back
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Opera Noir
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2012-12-07 11:53:25 UTC
30 pilots is a lot of lost DPS. Its also a pipe dream. Anyway, if you are going to do a comparison it would have to be 10 pilots to 10 pilots, in which case t2 logis will obviously have the advantage. Am I upset that logi 5 is no longer as important as it was before? A little, the t1's seem to have significantly more capability compared to the t2's when compared against t1's/t2's that share combat rolls. That said I still see lots of Falcons floating about despite the fact that Blackbirds are also viable boats which I see about as often, possibly a bit less. Of course if Scimitars could fit Cov-ops cloaks then that comparison would have more validity :p
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#62 - 2012-12-07 11:59:56 UTC
Opera Noir wrote:
Am I upset that logi 5 is no longer as important as it was before?
Meh. Logi V is still one of those fabled level-Vs -- the ones that are worth training, no questions asked. Very few skills offer that kind of usefulness, and the addition of a couple of T1 ships that people can use as training platforms doesn't change this.
Peter Tjordenskiold
#63 - 2012-12-07 12:02:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Peter Tjordenskiold
Elzon1 wrote:
I'll keep this post as simple as possible. Tech 1 logistic cruisers will be replacing Tech 2 logistics in nullsec wars.
You can have 5 fully fitted Scythe's for the cost of 1 Scimitar!



No. Ok, you can buy 5 Scytes, but it's not a real replacement. Learn the basics of a tank. Even in blob warfare you give a f**** on the costs of a scimitar.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2012-12-07 12:11:00 UTC
Many more pilots can now be logi pilots... so it will be easier to find "logi" pilots... but those pilots that trained the logistics skill will be most effective in a Logi.

As mentioned, the number of pilots is limiting, but also as mentioned, so is ISK.
You know what is about 5x as expensive as a standard BS? a pirate faction BS. How many fleets of those do you see?
So it seems a cost factor of 5x can override the pilot # limitation.
I doubt this scales linearly though - it certainly wouldn't if we were talking 10k vs 50k ISK boats.

What I foresee is a mix of T2 and T1 - the core logis will still be T2, but I can easily imagine an auxiliary logi squad composed of T1 logis, whose pilots are willing to be logi, but don't have the skills to fly a T2 logi.

Consider, repping 200 DPS on a target with 70% omni resists means repping 667 EHP/sec - which pretty much negates the applied DPS of a standard T1 BS (and if that BS overheats hardeners, as it should when targetted, the reps become even more effective - although given the benefit of armor fleets at those scales, and that EANMS cant be overheated unlike Invulns, this is not as relevant)
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games.
#65 - 2012-12-07 12:12:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Buhhdust Princess
I for one believe Exequror is god.

Example, we got blackops dropped by 20 bombers: http://cyn0.syn-dot.com/index.php/kill_related/12120/

Example, took sentries and got engaged by around 9/10 bcs and support: http://cyn0.syn-dot.com/index.php/kill_related/12069/

Just Sayin'
feihcsiM
THE B0YS
#66 - 2012-12-07 12:31:36 UTC
The SRF any decent nullsec alliances/coalitions has makes the 'scimi or scythe' debate utterly pointless.

Dead logi reimbursed = why fly scythe?

For lowsec / random roams / random gangs then the T1 logis have uses, but as the OP points out this is not where the majority are lost.

It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#67 - 2012-12-07 12:36:24 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
You know what is about 5x as expensive as a standard BS? a pirate faction BS. How many fleets of those do you see?
The difference is that those pirate battleship do not offer 50% "utility" (DPS in their case, rather than repping power), on top of increased utility application, on top of doubled survivability, on top of... on top of... [etc]. The bang for your buck you get with logis is quite a bit higher than you'd get when looking at stepping up from battleships. Of course, this is hardly surprising since, as you say, it doesn't scale linearly: it's all about marginal improvement for exponential cost, and going from a 20M ship to a 150M ship (be it a logi or a BS) is not the same as going from a 150M ship to a 750M ship, by design.

Oh, and you don't see fleets of pirate BSes for the same reason you don't see fleets of logis: because it would be bad fleet composition. But that's just nitpicking. P

Quote:
What I foresee is a mix of T2 and T1 - the core logis will still be T2, but I can easily imagine an auxiliary logi squad composed of T1 logis, whose pilots are willing to be logi, but don't have the skills to fly a T2 logi.
Yes, this is the more likely scenario. They're training wheels or a bit of added support for some suicide roam. They will not be a replacement for the simple reason that they can't replace logis unless you sacrifice (a good amount of) fleet positions, and those positions are put to better use through other means.
Albert Temper
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-12-07 13:19:00 UTC
Yeah and a PLEX to run a Guardian account costs the same as a PLEX to run an Augoror account. 600M. And if you lose 3 Guardians a month you're doing it wrong.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#69 - 2012-12-07 13:20:19 UTC
Albert Temper wrote:
Yeah and a PLEX to run a Guardian account costs the same as a PLEX to run an Augoror account. 600M. And if you lose 3 Guardians a month you're doing it wrong.

3 guardians a month sounds like some ~gudfites~ were had.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#70 - 2012-12-07 13:39:09 UTC
Quote:


I wonder who will be switching to tech 1 logistics first.... oh yeah!

Quote:
We might have some hilarious 't1 doctrines' with the new T1 cruiser changes/logi frigs, but those won't be official doctrines until Vee/Laz/Boat come down from FC Mountain with new carved tablets for us to ooh and ahh over.
T1 logi for t1 cruiser and frigate roams. We are currently putting together new fleet fits now. Main fleets will continue to us t2 logi becase they are better.
Spurty
#71 - 2012-12-07 13:49:09 UTC
I for one love that T1 is that much closer to T2

If you put one large rep on, you can sit 92km behind your meat shield

But that's about all you'll fit lol

More realistically 4 mediums @ 66km with cap transfer = epic (as in good)

Can put a fair buffer tank on as well for those moments while setting up / burning back to the gate :-)

And the circle jerk should be using these to fasten their defenses

Very easy to get into and so good

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#72 - 2012-12-07 13:56:02 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:


I wonder who will be switching to tech 1 logistics first.... oh yeah!

Quote:
We might have some hilarious 't1 doctrines' with the new T1 cruiser changes/logi frigs, but those won't be official doctrines until Vee/Laz/Boat come down from FC Mountain with new carved tablets for us to ooh and ahh over.
T1 logi for t1 cruiser and frigate roams. We are currently putting together new fleet fits now. Main fleets will continue to us t2 logi becase they are better.

Heh, oh my is that a GSF ceo update leak I see ~~<3

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#73 - 2012-12-07 14:26:14 UTC

For Fleet, you want to make the most out of every pilot:

A t2 logi is more survivable, reps more, and is therefore a better addition to the fleet than a t1 Logistics Cruiser.

If you were suiciding your fleet, and only cared about the isk war, then t1 logi's are the better choice... but that's typically NOT the case!
YoYo NickyYo
Doomheim
#74 - 2012-12-07 17:40:45 UTC
Elzon1 wrote:
Alua Oresson wrote:
Elzon1 wrote:
Alua Oresson wrote:
What's the EHP and resists on those T1 Scythes again? I'm not saying that the T1 Logistics won't be used, they will, but for sov warfare fleets the T2 logistics cruisers will still be used predominantely, they are just that much better at surviving.


Tech 2 logistics can die just like Tech 1 logistic ships.

However, you can afford 5 fully fitted tech 1 logistic cruisers for the price of one scimitar hull.

If a subcap fleet needs logistics support (what fleet doesn't?) then they will be using tech 1 logistic cruisers in larger fleets.

Tech 2 logistic ships will be more useful for small scale roams.


You avoided the question, which means that you know the answer. If the logistics don't last long enough for reps to hit, then they aren't useful.


They are slightly easier to hit (higher sig radius). A little easier to jam (lower sensor strength). And they have lower effective hp overall.

However, this is all overshadowed by the fact that the tech 1 version is 5 times cheaper than the tech 2 version.

Reps will hit and they will be useful.


I've been in 0.0. in many different corps. Many of them never had highend moons. Yet most of them replaced T2 logi at 100%.
Perhaps your leadership is doing it wrong? Oops

Or you might want to join Test, they'll let you fly anything........




I am not, nor will I ever be...Nicky Yo.... The question you should ask is.....When will they release the NICKY!
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2012-12-07 17:55:59 UTC
Nevermind, answered my own question.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#76 - 2012-12-07 18:27:41 UTC
YoYo NickyYo wrote:
Perhaps your leadership is doing it wrong? Oops

Or you might want to join Test, they'll let you fly anything........

So Test is doing it right, eh. Good to know ...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#77 - 2012-12-07 18:33:34 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Heh, oh my is that a GSF ceo update leak I see ~~<3


These things leak all over the place so often we dont even bother getting the mop out anymore.
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#78 - 2012-12-07 19:35:15 UTC
The op's cost per rep prie doesn't make sense. He didn't seem to factor in the life of the ship. How did you even come up with that figure? Also, wouldn't there be a hard cap? Like after so many rep cycles the ship pays for itself? It seems you don't quite understand that there'd be a half-life type line over the cost of a rep, because the number of reps the ship does in a life time (on average) should also be factored.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#79 - 2012-12-07 19:38:29 UTC
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
The op's cost per rep prie doesn't make sense. He didn't seem to factor in the life of the ship. How did you even come up with that figure? Also, wouldn't there be a hard cap? Like after so many rep cycles the ship pays for itself? It seems you don't quite understand that there'd be a half-life type line over the cost of a rep, because the number of reps the ship does in a life time (on average) should also be factored.

Heh, a larger investment with a larger return.

I mean think about the number of Caracals you could buy for the price of a Leviathan.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2012-12-07 19:39:28 UTC
surely allowing alliances to zerg with t1 cruisers is the final nail in goonswarm's coffin

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.