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Tech 1 logistics are the straw that broke the Tech Camel's back
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Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-12-07 08:25:01 UTC
pussnheels wrote:
they will take T 1 if they don't have enough of the T2 around , but in a fleet i rather have 10 guardian pilots and 140 battleships than 30 half trained half fitted T1 logi pilots/ships and only 120 battle ships


Pilots flying tech 1 logistics will realistically have their respective cruiser to lvl 4 or 5 and will have a fully fitted ship. If the pilots can fly their respective race's battleship then they will have their race's cruiser lvl to 4.

With the scythe vs. scimitar example the scythe has 187.2 hp per second and the scimitar has 230.4 hp per second.

Now lets see about 10 scimitars vs 30 scythes:

10 scimitars = 2,304 hp per second

30 scythes= 5,616 hp per second

I would prefer the 5,616 hp per second than I would the 2,304 hp per second, but that's just me. Smile

Which fleet do you think would be more likely to survive? The fleet with only 2,304 hp per second or the fleet with 5,616 hp per second?

Also, lets include a price comparison shall we:

10 scimitars (hulls only) = 1,340,000,000 isk

30 scythes (fully fitted) = 765,000,000 isk

The choice seems rather obvious to me.

Did I forget to mention that Scythes can target each other a little faster than Scimitars, guess I did. Cool

The scan resolution of the scythe and scimitar is the same, but the scythe has a slightly larger sig radius making it quicker to target both for the enemy and fellow logistic pilots.
Dave Stark
#42 - 2012-12-07 08:27:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Only difference the t1 logi will make is that newer players can provide reps sooner. T2 will still be used just as much as last week.


this man speaks a lot of sense.
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#43 - 2012-12-07 08:41:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Xen Solarus
Thats until they realise how much more they LOSE when facing a fleet of superior logistics! The difference in amount of reps, when we're talking about large amounts of logistics, will be significant between T1 and T2. I'd still put my money on the fleet with the superior logistics.

Isk is irrelevant to these people anyway.

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Rovinia
Exotic Dancers Union
#44 - 2012-12-07 08:45:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Rovinia
You're right that the T1 Logistics are very cost effective compared to their T2 counterparts atm, but you miss a major point here:

The Mainproblem for most alliances is not the lack or cost of Logisticships, the problem is to find the pilots who are willing to fly them. Same for ECM Boats. To compensate that, it makes sense to take the more expensive T2 version even if they're only slightly better.

You are allways THE primary target and chances are good that you die in the first minutes or even seconds of a fight. Than you can warp back to save and listen to the epic battle in TS where all the Drakepilots have a lot of fun ;)

Don't missunderstand me, personally i love flying logistics, especially in small gangs. But the overwhelming majority of the Playerbase don't.

Reasons:

- You're a primary target (as mentioned)
- No shiny weaponeffects
- Hard to get on Killmails
- Important role in a fleet and the fear to do something wrong.


As well, the T2 counterparts will be patched too soon­™ ;)
cBOLTSON
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-12-07 08:49:10 UTC  |  Edited by: cBOLTSON
So your going to find 5 x the number of logistics pilots now are you?

Hey guys, were rolling with those navy apocs, but please only bring t1 logistics.....

yer right.

The good old days of Unreal Tournament, fragging and sniping on Facing Worlds, listening to Foregone Destruction.......
Dave Stark
#46 - 2012-12-07 08:53:21 UTC
cBOLTSON wrote:
So your going to find 5 x the number of logistics pilots now are you?


see all those pilots flying t3 cruisers, they can also fly the t1 logi ships.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#47 - 2012-12-07 09:00:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
The issue with this statement being is that most Chars with the will and skill to fly logistics already have logistics V, not to say Scythes wont be useful, we rolled 2 of them + some AFs and it was great fun, but in the end you arent going to see Scimis replaced with scythes, they lack the T2 resists or the small Sig that make Logi relatively survivable as well as not providing as much range or repping power, and cost isnt really a factor when they are supporting 200-250 Mil isk Recons and 200 Mil isk battleships.

They are also comparatively very ECM weak, I was having serious issue with 1 Flight of ECM drones.
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#48 - 2012-12-07 09:01:19 UTC
cBOLTSON wrote:
So your going to find 5 x the number of logistics pilots now are you?

Hey guys, were rolling with those navy apocs, but please only bring t1 logistics.....

yer right.


Navy Apocs are great when dealing with small gang warfare or a very short lived larger war. However, using Navy Apoc's for large scale prolonged warfare just isn't sane.

You can find people who can fly tech 1 logistics much easier than you can find tech 2 logistic pilots.

I would prefer tech 1 logistics in large scale prolonged warfare as I can bring many more of them than I can tech 2 logistics. Also, with the greater number of tech 1 logistics I could easily out rep the enemy.

Also, tech 1 logistics can lock each other faster than tech logistics can, but of course the enemy can lock you a little more quickly as well.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2012-12-07 09:07:52 UTC  |  Edited by: ChromeStriker
Ok first, if i die flying a scimi in an alliance i normally make a profit through reimbursement... (they pay me more than the ships worth). Isk means little nowadays

Next T2 logi have T2 resists and smaller sigs for those AB moments. This makes them SO much easier to keep alive.

T2 rep more.

Finding logi pilots is hard! When you get to lrg fleets and you have enough logi to max a BS's shields in 1 cycle, the enemy go after your logi. At this point the extra survivability ot T2 is whats important. Not how many logi you have

No Worries
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-12-07 09:08:51 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
The issue with this statement being is that most Chars with the will and skill to fly logistics already have logistics V, not to say Scythes wont be useful, we rolled 2 of them + some AFs and it was great fun, but in the end you arent going to see Scimis replaced with scythes, they lack the T2 resists or the small Sig that make Logi relatively survivable as well as not providing as much range or repping power, and cost isnt really a factor when they are supporting 200-250 Mil isk Recons and 200 Mil isk battleships.

They are also comparatively very ECM weak, I was having serious issue with 1 Flight of ECM drones.


For small gangs the Scimitar will be the better choice not the Scythe. However, when it comes to prolonged large scale warfare then Scythe is more appropriate due to it's superior cost effectiveness.

Tech 1 will always have drawbacks against tech 2, but cost effectiveness on a large scale isn't one of them.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2012-12-07 09:08:57 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
When will CCP finally start balancing ships by cost. lol Seriously.

Think about it, don't think isk cost, think the cost to build the thing. If it takes 3 times more money, then ... Maybe it's ok if it heals twice the amount as the tech 1 version. They don't need massive HP buffs. But they do need massive bonuses. Cost should be a factor. BUILD COST should be the faction. Not the market price.

The game needs some major rebalancing in the tech 2 department. But that was part of the plan. The devs did warn us. Tech 2 ships and faction ships are going to be useless for a while. Untill the next balance patch. Well, I hope they work fast.

Quick example. Let the scimitar heal twice as much as the tech one ship, because it costs five times as much to build. It doesn't have to be one to one balancing.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#52 - 2012-12-07 09:09:25 UTC
You didnt actually read anything I said did you?
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2012-12-07 09:10:27 UTC
Elzon1 wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
The issue with this statement being is that most Chars with the will and skill to fly logistics already have logistics V, not to say Scythes wont be useful, we rolled 2 of them + some AFs and it was great fun, but in the end you arent going to see Scimis replaced with scythes, they lack the T2 resists or the small Sig that make Logi relatively survivable as well as not providing as much range or repping power, and cost isnt really a factor when they are supporting 200-250 Mil isk Recons and 200 Mil isk battleships.

They are also comparatively very ECM weak, I was having serious issue with 1 Flight of ECM drones.


For small gangs the Scimitar will be the better choice not the Scythe. However, when it comes to prolonged large scale warfare then Scythe is more appropriate due to it's superior cost effectiveness.

Tech 1 will always have drawbacks against tech 2, but cost effectiveness on a large scale isn't one of them.


Theres no problem with cost! All the wars before now, the big long ones, used T2 logi.... wasn't a problem then, wont be a problem now

No Worries
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2012-12-07 09:12:49 UTC
I know I have an extreme opinion on the matter. I'm not going to lie.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2012-12-07 09:14:40 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
The issue with this statement being is that most Chars with the will and skill to fly logistics already have logistics V, not to say Scythes wont be useful, we rolled 2 of them + some AFs and it was great fun, but in the end you arent going to see Scimis replaced with scythes, they lack the T2 resists or the small Sig that make Logi relatively survivable as well as not providing as much range or repping power, and cost isnt really a factor when they are supporting 200-250 Mil isk Recons and 200 Mil isk battleships.

They are also comparatively very ECM weak, I was having serious issue with 1 Flight of ECM drones.


Not true for the Augoror for example, sure you have a lower base sensor strength but you have 3 meds when the Guardian has only 2.
With 1xAB+2xECCM the Augoror has a sensor strength of 60, heated 78 add a info link booster and you should be fine. The Guardian can fit 2xECCM either but then you have to compare that to 3xECCM on the Augoror.

Tl, dr:
The Augoror is harder to jam because of it's slot layout.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
Cyprus Black
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#56 - 2012-12-07 09:22:21 UTC
So wait, are you complaining about the lower demand for Technetium?
Or are you complaining about how more alliances can field logistic pilots?
Are you complaining about how the T1 works almost as effectively as the T2?
Are you unaware that CCP will be balancing T2 ships in the future?

Your rant seems like scattershot, a myriad of half thought out complaints and whines.

Summary of EvEs last four expansions: http://imgur.com/ZL5SM33
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#57 - 2012-12-07 09:26:34 UTC
ChromeStriker wrote:
Theres no problem with cost! All the wars before now, the big long ones, used T2 logi.... wasn't a problem then, wont be a problem now


Well, before there wasn't a choice to use tech 1 logistics now was there?

Now they exist and now FC's are looking into the possibility of switching over to tech 1 logistics.

It's strange how people just assume major alliances have infinite isk or something. They don't plain and simple! Anything that can significantly reduce costs during wartime is fairly welcome in both small and large alliances.

If tech 1 logistics are utilized effectively the alliance can use that isk they didn't spend and use it to do other things like build more super carriers. Cost is always a problem and always will be. The more their passive income fails them, the more they will have to rely more on their membership.
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#58 - 2012-12-07 09:41:19 UTC
Cyprus Black wrote:
So wait, are you complaining about the lower demand for Technetium?


No, that's why I originally pushed for the alchemy changes and I was VERY happy when CCP finally implemented it. It had the effect I wanted to see.

Cyprus Black wrote:
Or are you complaining about how more alliances can field logistic pilots?


Nope, it's good for alliances to have more logistics pilots on the field. However, less reliance on tech 2 ships means lower tech prices.


Cyprus Black wrote:
Are you complaining about how the T1 works almost as effectively as the T2?


Nope, no complaints about cost effectiveness seeing as this is normal for any tech 1 vs tech 2 situation.

Cyprus Black wrote:
Are you unaware that CCP will be balancing T2 ships in the future?


I'm aware of this, but logistics wasn't one of the main issues it was more like the electronic attack frigates as well as others that needed some love. If CCP changes tech 2 logistics it will most likely be minor as they are pretty good where they are.

Cyprus Black wrote:
Your rant seems like scattershot, a myriad of half thought out complaints and whines.


To you maybe? Perhaps you saw the thread title and saw the word "tech" and instantly thought this was some sort of whine thread about big bad tech moons or goons. This is not the case whatsoever.

This thread is more of a prediction thread about major alliances switching over to tech 1 logistics in prolonged large scale wars. Also, the reduced utilization of tech 2 logistic ships could cause a drop in demand for platinum technite and therefore reduce it's price.

Tech prices going down hurts me in a way, but that's what I wanted in the first place. By participating in alchemy I am helping the process along while profiting from it. Cool
Doddy
Excidium.
#59 - 2012-12-07 09:50:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Doddy
Isk has never been a deciding factor in any alliance combat ever. No-one will fly t1 logi cruisers over logis in main gangs. Its great that people skilling for logis can get in on the action earlier for sure, but current logi pilots in main alliances will only use t1 logi cruisers for lols.

When current alliance combat is based on super caps, caps, faction bs, t3s, faction fit tackle recons and mindlinked boosters logistics are already one of the cheap options.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-12-07 10:00:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Not only are they less effective, but you're losing DPS every time you put another guy in a t1 logistics instead of a T2.

OPs example makes as much sense as saying that because a T1 combat ship is cheaper you can field more, even though you obviously need to field more in order to make up the DPS, on top of the need to make sure you have the added pilots to fly the extra ships.