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Tech 1 logistics are the straw that broke the Tech Camel's back
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#21 - 2012-12-07 06:58:24 UTC
Elzon1 wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Elzon1 wrote:
Tech 2 logistics can die just like Tech 1 logistic ships.

However, you can afford 5 fully fitted tech 1 logistic cruisers for the price of one scimitar hull.

Oh ho, you reveal your hidden side as a ...

blobber.


It's a very effective tactic as you already know very well.

We won't see more tactical fleets until there are more remote A.O.E modules are added to the game.

I could make a joke about remote AoE doomsdays, but ...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Nylith Empyreal
Sutar Rein
#22 - 2012-12-07 07:00:20 UTC
Wtb missile aoe back.

Who's the more foolish the fool or the fool who replies to him?
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-12-07 07:04:02 UTC
Alua Oresson wrote:
Elzon1 wrote:
Alua Oresson wrote:
What's the EHP and resists on those T1 Scythes again? I'm not saying that the T1 Logistics won't be used, they will, but for sov warfare fleets the T2 logistics cruisers will still be used predominantely, they are just that much better at surviving.


Tech 2 logistics can die just like Tech 1 logistic ships.

However, you can afford 5 fully fitted tech 1 logistic cruisers for the price of one scimitar hull.

If a subcap fleet needs logistics support (what fleet doesn't?) then they will be using tech 1 logistic cruisers in larger fleets.

Tech 2 logistic ships will be more useful for small scale roams.


You avoided the question, which means that you know the answer. If the logistics don't last long enough for reps to hit, then they aren't useful.


They are slightly easier to hit (higher sig radius). A little easier to jam (lower sensor strength). And they have lower effective hp overall.

However, this is all overshadowed by the fact that the tech 1 version is 5 times cheaper than the tech 2 version.

Reps will hit and they will be useful.
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-12-07 07:08:13 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Elzon1 wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Elzon1 wrote:
Tech 2 logistics can die just like Tech 1 logistic ships.

However, you can afford 5 fully fitted tech 1 logistic cruisers for the price of one scimitar hull.

Oh ho, you reveal your hidden side as a ...

blobber.


It's a very effective tactic as you already know very well.

We won't see more tactical fleets until there are more remote A.O.E modules are added to the game.

I could make a joke about remote AoE doomsdays, but ...


Yeah, I know... titans destroying entire fleets in seconds Twisted

However, I'm referencing things like the Remote ECM Burst I and bombs. So, I was talking more about effect based A.O.E then I was damage.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#25 - 2012-12-07 07:16:07 UTC
Only difference the t1 logi will make is that newer players can provide reps sooner. T2 will still be used just as much as last week.
Zack Korth
Livid CO.
#26 - 2012-12-07 07:16:13 UTC
Elzon1 wrote:
I'll keep this post as simple as possible. Tech 1 logistic cruisers will be replacing Tech 2 logistics in nullsec wars.

Why? Because they are cheaper!

Prove it!

Scimitar

Cost: 134 million isk (Standard Scimitar fit)

Shield repair amount: 230.4 per second

Cost of rep per second: 581,597 isk

Scythe

Cost: 25.5 million isk (fitted similar to the previous fit with an added Capacitor Power Relay II and Medium Liquid Cooled Electronics I)

Shield repair amount: 187.2 per second

Cost of rep per second: 136,218 isk

You can have 5 fully fitted Scythe's for the cost of 1 Scimitar!

And now that the tech 1 logistic cruisers will be replacing the tech 2 logistics there will be a fairly significant drop in the demand of Technetium/Platinum Technite!

As a result the price of Technetium/Platinum Technite will drop significantly!

The death of Technetium moons as a major passive income source may come sooner than expected! Twisted


First off, good. anything that helps kill technetium prices is a good thing.

Second, take 5 tech 2 Logis and 5 tech 1 Logis, the difference would be about 250 HP a second right? What war capable null sec alliance can't handle the price difference of the extra 250 HP a sec? none of them, they can all afford to use tech 2, they can all afford to try to swing the odds in their favor, and people hell bent on winning usually do.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#27 - 2012-12-07 07:23:09 UTC
Elzon1 wrote:
Yeah, I know... titans destroying entire fleets in seconds Twisted

However, I'm referencing things like the Remote ECM Burst I and bombs. So, I was talking more about effect based A.O.E then I was damage.

I actually love bombs. Either that or I love sitting cloaked in space - hard to tell, sometimes.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#28 - 2012-12-07 07:25:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Only difference the t1 logi will make is that newer players can provide reps sooner. T2 will still be used just as much as last week.

It could be a pretty nice advantage. It's odd when people always talk about alpha, but getting more pilots into logistics is a great thing, and T1 cruisers are much easier to get into less painful (to pilot, or the alliance is reimbursing) to use. Plus, sorta-new-newbies in Scythes as the image of logistics in a blob, I like it.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
pussnheels
Viziam
#29 - 2012-12-07 07:27:18 UTC
Elzon1 wrote:
]

what you are mentioning are just statistics , they just numbers people play with , they do not however show you the whole picture
and yes you are right , people will be using t1 logis more often now , that was the whole purpose of the buff

but you only took one example the scythe and scimitar , there are 3 others
and while i was sceptic at first aswell, the gap in performance between them is still big enough to make it more than worthwhile training the t2 ones ,
besides the T1 have a rather paper tank somethig you can not deny

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-12-07 07:29:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
They might make a difference among the mission crowd...


I don't think people will use them for incursions, and with the new AI i don't think it's safe ti be sitting in a frigate running remote rep in a level 4 mission.

I believed they was added to the game to support small pvp gangs that need a logistic option which was easy affordable and did not require a lot of skill points.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-12-07 07:30:36 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Oh ho, you reveal your hidden side as a ...

blobber.
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-12-07 07:39:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Elzon1
Tippia wrote:
No they won't.

Why?

Because they're not nearly as good at the job. Less repping power + lower survivability (= even less repping power over time) = loss. They might make a difference among the mission crowd, where ship loss is a silly rare occurrence anyway, but for fleet work, they are only training wheels on the way to T2.


The mission crowd will continue to use tech 2 logistics that probably won't change. Neutral reps will probably change over to tech 1 logistic cruisers though.

Yes, they have less repping power.
Yes, they have arguably lower survivability.

However, they are cheaper and easier to get into for lower skilled pilots. Tech 1 logistics are more cost effective in large scale prolonged warfare than tech 2 logistics. Most people involved in nullsec warfare can fly tech 1 logistics. Those pilots capable of flying tech 2 logistics are far fewer in number. You can bring many more tech 1 logistics to the field than you can tech 2 logistics.

Tech 1 logistics are more cost effective than tech 2 logistics. You don't see alliances use large fleets of marauders do you? No, tech 1 battleships are more cost effective and more people can fly them. You don't see alliances use large fleets of faction battleships do you? No, tech 1 battleships are more cost effective and more people can fly them.

Cost effectiveness can be a large determining factor in who wins a prolonged war.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-12-07 07:44:06 UTC
Elzon1 wrote:
You don't see alliances use large fleets of marauders do you? No, tech 1 battleships are more cost effective and more people can fly them. You don't see alliances use large fleets of faction battleships do you? No, tech 1 battleships are more cost effective and more people can fly them.


Technically faction battleships are T1 battleships.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#34 - 2012-12-07 07:46:33 UTC
Tippia wrote:
No they won't.

Why?

Because they're not nearly as good at the job. Less repping power + lower survivability (= even less repping power over time) = loss. They might make a difference among the mission crowd, where ship loss is a silly rare occurrence anyway, but for fleet work, they are only training wheels on the way to T2.


So your saying during the T2 ship rebalnce, the logistic ships won't need anything changed then? They are good to go as is?

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-12-07 07:49:37 UTC
dexington wrote:
Elzon1 wrote:
You don't see alliances use large fleets of marauders do you? No, tech 1 battleships are more cost effective and more people can fly them. You don't see alliances use large fleets of faction battleships do you? No, tech 1 battleships are more cost effective and more people can fly them.


Technically faction battleships are T1 battleships.


T1 battleships = meta 0

Faction battleships= meta > 0

See the difference?

Faction battleships are far more expensive than tech 1 battleships. You can bring more dps for less isk using tech 1 battleships than you can with faction battleships. Cost effectiveness, it's a big thing out in nullsec (at least in terms of prolonged warfare).
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-12-07 07:51:31 UTC
Elzon1 wrote:
Alua Oresson wrote:
What's the EHP and resists on those T1 Scythes again? I'm not saying that the T1 Logistics won't be used, they will, but for sov warfare fleets the T2 logistics cruisers will still be used predominantely, they are just that much better at surviving.


Tech 2 logistics can die just like Tech 1 logistic ships.

However, you can afford 5 fully fitted tech 1 logistic cruisers for the price of one scimitar hull.

yes they are. and yes they die.

However: do you have 5 logistics pilots to replace 1 T2 logistics pilot? =)

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-12-07 07:57:54 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Elzon1 wrote:
Alua Oresson wrote:
What's the EHP and resists on those T1 Scythes again? I'm not saying that the T1 Logistics won't be used, they will, but for sov warfare fleets the T2 logistics cruisers will still be used predominantely, they are just that much better at surviving.


Tech 2 logistics can die just like Tech 1 logistic ships.

However, you can afford 5 fully fitted tech 1 logistic cruisers for the price of one scimitar hull.

yes they are. and yes they die.

However: do you have 5 logistics pilots to replace 1 T2 logistics pilot? =)


Looks at title of thread.... looks at main post.... looks at your comment...

Obviously I was talking about large nullsec alliances using tech 1 logistics and yes they have many tech 1 logistic capable pilots to replace/supplement their tech 2 logistic capable pilots.

You must be new here
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-12-07 08:02:13 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Only difference the t1 logi will make is that newer players can provide reps sooner. T2 will still be used just as much as last week.

It could be a pretty nice advantage. It's odd when people always talk about alpha, but getting more pilots into logistics is a great thing, and T1 cruisers are much easier to get into less painful (to pilot, or the alliance is reimbursing) to use. Plus, sorta-new-newbies in Scythes as the image of logistics in a blob, I like it.


I wonder who will be switching to tech 1 logistics first.... oh yeah!

Quote:
We might have some hilarious 't1 doctrines' with the new T1 cruiser changes/logi frigs, but those won't be official doctrines until Vee/Laz/Boat come down from FC Mountain with new carved tablets for us to ooh and ahh over.
pussnheels
Viziam
#39 - 2012-12-07 08:07:50 UTC
Elzon1 wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Elzon1 wrote:
Alua Oresson wrote:
What's the EHP and resists on those T1 Scythes again? I'm not saying that the T1 Logistics won't be used, they will, but for sov warfare fleets the T2 logistics cruisers will still be used predominantely, they are just that much better at surviving.


Tech 2 logistics can die just like Tech 1 logistic ships.

However, you can afford 5 fully fitted tech 1 logistic cruisers for the price of one scimitar hull.

yes they are. and yes they die.

However: do you have 5 logistics pilots to replace 1 T2 logistics pilot? =)


Looks at title of thread.... looks at main post.... looks at your comment...

Obviously I was talking about large nullsec alliances using tech 1 logistics and yes they have many tech 1 logistic capable pilots to replace/supplement their tech 2 logistic capable pilots.

You must be new here


they will take T 1 if they don't have enough of the T2 around , but in a fleet i rather have 10 guardian pilots and 140 battleships than 30 half trained half fitted T1 logi pilots/ships and only 120 battle ships

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#40 - 2012-12-07 08:13:08 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
So, the Sycthe will end our 0.0 dreams?



Yeah I guess its back to Syndicate for you guys

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016