Intergalactic Summit

The Ancestors and the Winds might take exception to a small part of your reply, Vikarion. Veneration of the Ancestors and the Winds might not be something we go on and on about in public, but it is definitely part of the culture that lies at the center of our great State.

On every other point, however, you are unassailable.

I will simply say that this simply is another case of a person unable to read the entire thesis before speaking. I would urge you to read the entire thesis before stating, what was already stated there, as if it is some new idea on your part.

Let me try to cover all of it here in a sketchy manner: I don't want to write up a history of the entire Amarrian history. That's why I gave the link. I'll try to cover everything in the sequence you bring it up:

"The Gallente surpass the Empire economically in every none artificial aspect."

This is kind of overgeneralizing the issue. While the Gallentean economy is certainly bigger than the Amarrian economy, that doesn't necessarily translate to it surpassing the Amarrian economy in every aspect. For example, the Federations economy is depending much more on exports and imports than the Empire's. A differentiated account is found here.

"At one point the Gallente and the Amarr fought a war, a war that many would say still exists to this day but is now fought by proxy states of the Caldari and Minmatar."

The Amarr and the Gallente were in conflict quite from the beginning of contact and while they were never in all out war, as I pointed out above, many historians would say that there has been a state of cold war between the two with thawing and freezing relations over time. As pointed out by Vikarion in more detail then me, the Caldari State contacted the Empire when it was already quite independent from the Federation and strong enough to stand on its own feet.

Maybe you should read about it here:
"Regardless of the negotiated restrictions, the agreement did serve as the foundation for a shaky peace between the two [the Amarrian and Gallentean] sides. It established a neutral border between the two sides which ships were allowed to enter unrestricted. While the two empires have never been friendly, they have also never entered into open warfare."

"The only reason this war did not end like all other wars fought by the Empire, i.e. the conquering of the Federation, is that the Federation was every bit the rival economically of the Empire. Amarr military might was, historically speaking, far superior to that of the Federation, however the Federation economy was such that for every ship the Empire fielded the Federation fielded six."

The Amarrian military was at the given time not in the same condition as the Federations: The latter was hardened by the conflicts with the Caldari, while the former had seen no serious conflicts for millenia. It's not been the number of ships that the Federation could field that was instrumental in keeping the peace (The Empire would have probably been easily able to outship the Federation simply because it had more access to minirals given its vast expanses.) but that contrary to what you say the Federations military was a threat to the Amarr navy in serious conflict, as you can read here.

"The Imperial hierarchy at the time was such that only nobles and their retainers were permitted to command military vessels, whilst Federation doctrine allowed any man or woman of merit to command."

This, in my opinion is pure conjecture on your part, one born out of prejudice I'd suggest. The Navy has always been a means of upwards social mobility:
"The Navy offers one of the few ways that someone can raise themselves from poverty. The fleet is remarkably non-discriminatory for an Amarr institution, accepting personnel from all bloodlines. Many people of Udorian, Ni-Kunni, and even Minmatar birth have served with distinction within the Navy."

"First they backed the State in such a way that had never been done before by the Amarr."

While it is true that they backed it in a way never seen before, your assertion that it "helped to create a autonomous satellite nation" is incorrect, as already pointed out. Rather "In 23222 AD, the two nations signed the Caldari-Amarr Declaration of Friendship, a pact that agreed to respect the sovereignty, not interfere in the internal affairs, and share intelligence on the enemies of the other side. Additionally, though the two sides had little in the way of a common border at the time, they demilitarized their mutual borders, allowing each to focus their forces in other places."

Never was this considered to be an act of heresy as it was negotiated on behalf of the Emperor.

How strange to describe the State as proxy of the Empire when history has shown that the Caldari people will defend the independence of our nation, our destiny as bestowed by our ancestors and the sovereignty of the State to the very last drop of our blood. If the Empire ever made the grievous mistake of overstepping the bounds of its non-aggression pact with the State then they will come to know just how willing the State and its people will be to bury Amarrian sons and daughters in the shallow graves of their own arrogance. Far better to die proud and free as a Caldari than to ever live under foreign subjugation.

The Empire I think understand that there are limits to everything, even friendship, and that any attempts to dictate terms to Caldari will be ignored for we are the masters of our own fates and if they ever should wish to advance on the State with violence then yes, blood will be answered by blood; death will be answered by death; and they shall come to know the lengths Caldari will go to honour our debts of vengeance upon those who wish to be our enemies.

Any assertions to the contrary is nothing more than ignorance - willful or otherwise.

The great irony here is that it is in fact the Republic who are the proxies and puppets thrown into the strategic fires like dogs against the Empire so that Gallenteans may know peace and security while Matari languish in Federal ghettoes as itinerant and cheap labour forces in periphery colonies. Perhaps if the Minmatar people ever showed enough spine to wean themselves from the milk of Federal charity and cultural assimilation a new dialogue between the State and Republic might be possible, but as for now, why negotiate with the children when the political authority rests with Federal masters?

As several people have already mentioned, your thesis abounds with false assumptions, thick with false conclusions and even meanders into some contradictory statements.

While the subject is dear to me, and it seems to me you have put honest effort into it, I'm afraid your thesis is too much flawed to enter into a reasoned debate with you.

I suggest broadening your sources of information, get some opinions from other capsuleers and rewrite your thesis.

A popular barbarian standpoint. The uneducated tend to think of lethal violence as *the* solution for adjusting the behaviour of others. More humane and more efficient methods than outright killing those who disagree have been developed in the past millenia. I suggest you start looking at them. Preferably before you start raising children of your own.

Genocide was not the idea behind this thesis, nor was open hostility. The over all idea of the thesis was that slavery can only be ended by the Minmatar through economic growth. I understand that the thesis was long, and that it was written with a Matar bias and that this has put many of my esteemed Amarrian counter-parts off of reading the entire thesis.

Violence is a tool that can and should be used from time to time and should continue to be used in the struggle, however this alone only likens itself to filling a bucket, riddled with holes. We can fill and fill and fill and fill, but the bucket will always be empty. Until we plug the holes, until we fix the Republic or whatever form of government we as Minmatar choose to live under and give meaningful incentives to the Amarr, why would they ever reason with us or comply?

My point is that we need to fix the Minmatar spirit, economy and way of thinking. To long now have we rightfully be labeled the "Brutes of the Cluster" because we shoot and think never. Why would Amarr, or any nation, make deals and willingly place economic hardships on themselves with savages? I love the Tribes, all Seven of them, I want to see them reunited and I will use violence when the case calls for it, but we are also a thinking peoples and the idea behind this thesis was that we need to start using all of the tools given to us at birth.

Use your weapons, use your mind and use your soul and we will have reunification.

Written with Matar bias? What put me off is really that your argument hinges on a lot of misconceptions about the history of the Empire in specific and the New Eden cluster in general, as has been not only pointed out by myself, but various other people in this thread.



If that's your point you shouldn't make lengthy posts about the history of Amarr and economics of it, that are on the top of it wrong, but you should rather realize that how the self-governed Matari behave is in their own responsibility.

You should really study more of our history some time, instead of just reading through the Republic's cliff notes.

One doesn't release slaves 'to' someone. If one is manumitting a slave the ex-slave is free to choose where he wants to live and why. Releasing him to someone specifically would defeat the purpose of manumission, that is liberating the slave.

So, the proper question would be: "If I can show you two schemes which do exactly that, will you release your slaves?"