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Missiles they are not what they use to be
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John MaQmIgh
QunSegh
#1 - 2012-12-05 01:47:08 UTC
missiles nerfed again. as long as ive played eve its seems that missiles get less and less. ive lost over 60 k of range from the cereb . the complaint use to be missiles are over powered. now they are crap . the drake a missile ship now wont even hit at max range. come on 35% drop off ... i trained all my missiles skills too 100 percent over the years. and the caldari a missle loving people cry at how sorry a missile is now . when an orcale can put out 1600 damage a round where is the comparassion to missiles... yeah i know the drake can tank alot but come on it has to as it will take hours to kill anything ....
lets be fair here.. its a missile it should be deadly with the right skill set.... i could go on and on about comparisions but we all know missiles have the bad deal here.......
Mund Richard
#2 - 2012-12-05 02:57:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Heavy missiles had better dps than any other long-range medium weapon system in game, and thus needed the nerf.
Comparing anything to a t3 BC but another t3 BC before they are tiericided is silly, specially if even the weapon systems are different.

HAMs, Torps and rockets got buffed this expansion (by not being exluded from some rigs and implants).
The damage of light missiles got buffed.
Tech 2 missiles had their silly penalties removed.
Precision missiles were buffed, they no longer do less damage than T1.
Fitting a bunch of launchers got easier.
The Golem's target painting got buffed.

Tell me again how missiles overall got nerfed badly again.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Revelation CEO
QunSegh
#3 - 2012-12-06 00:02:33 UTC
Actually Mr. Richard, I do not believe the OP ever mentioned Heavy Missiles or Heavy Missile Damage. Point of fact, if you read his post, he is complaining about All Missile Range, and All missile damage compared to other Races and weapon types. He at no point said missile "damage" was nerfed.

The OP also never compared anything to the Tier 3 Oracle, he asked where the comparison to that level of damage was in missiles. Across hybrid, laser, and projectile weapons there exists a balance of damage. That is to say they are all about the same or are able to be made the same. Missiles however do not compare to other weapon types at all. Especially not in the terms of DPS, RoF, or now Range. Not to mention all Turrets deal multiple types of damage.

Now to clarify I own a Oracle, and have the maximum skills for it and T2 Lasers. I can in fact get a Amarr BS to this same level of 1600 damage he mentions (BS just cost more). Cruise missiles, (also with max skills) do NOT come close to this level of damage, and will NOT hit a small ship for more than double digit damage. Given the appropriate range my T2 Lasers will "insta pop" frigates and cruiser's every time. No missile boat I have ever tested, used, or operated is capable of such action. (even with grouped missiles)

Frankly Mr. Richard to call the OP or his post Silly, because you either did not read, or are simply stuck in your own little world of wanting to be superior, is just rude. The OP makes a solid point, and I do not know many who use Missiles out side of PVE. The accepted standard fits for most if not all PVP ships is based around Turrets.


Now Mr. Richard if you are truly a player of less than one year, you have no basis of knowledge for your statement. EvE has been around a long time, you have not. What gives you the right to complain about Drones in another thread, and not respect this man for making a complaint of his own.


You Sir, forget yourself.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#4 - 2012-12-06 02:33:30 UTC
Revelation CEO wrote:
Actually Mr. Richard, I do not believe the OP ever mentioned Heavy Missiles or Heavy Missile Damage. Point of fact, if you read his post, he is complaining about All Missile Range, and All missile damage compared to other Races and weapon types. He at no point said missile "damage" was nerfed.


The Op complained about losing missile range..... of which ONLY heavy missiles have recently had their range altered.
Teh Op mentioned how the Oracle outputs 1600 dps a "round", opening the door to discuss missile damage. (Note: An Oracle can NOT, in fact, output 1600 dps with any reasonable fit.)
Since half the missile systems in the game just had their damage buffed, and NONE of them had their damage nerfed, Mr. Richard pointed this out... which is extremely relevant.

Revelation CEO wrote:

The OP also never compared anything to the Tier 3 Oracle, he asked where the comparison to that level of damage was in missiles. Across hybrid, laser, and projectile weapons there exists a balance of damage. That is to say they are all about the same or are able to be made the same. Missiles however do not compare to other weapon types at all. Especially not in the terms of DPS, RoF, or now Range. Not to mention all Turrets deal multiple types of damage.

Now to clarify I own a Oracle, and have the maximum skills for it and T2 Lasers. I can in fact get a Amarr BS to this same level of 1600 damage he mentions (BS just cost more). Cruise missiles, (also with max skills) do NOT come close to this level of damage, and will NOT hit a small ship for more than double digit damage. Given the appropriate range my T2 Lasers will "insta pop" frigates and cruiser's every time. No missile boat I have ever tested, used, or operated is capable of such action. (even with grouped missiles)


1.) The fact turrets deal "multiple" types of damage is quite often a penalty, not a "bonus".

2.) What compares to the potential damage output of Large Pulse lasers, Blaster Cannons, and Autocannons?? Well Geeze... perhaps Torpedos??
Note: You can't get your reasonably fit Amarr BS to 1600 dps either..

The Torp Raven has similar Range, higher alpha, and similar dps as a pulse abbadon or gheddon.

I'll acknowldege that applying Torp dps to "smaller" targets is harder than applying turret dps to smaller target, due to differences in the missile vs turret damage formulas. However, it's moderately easy to outmaneuver turrets and negate ALL their dps, were as it's impossible to outmaneuver all missle damage, so a target (in range) ALWAYS receives some dps. There are pro's and con's to both formulas!


Other Potential Examples:
A HAM Drake outputs 500-600 dps consistently to 18 km's.
An AC Cane Outputs 600-700 dps consistently to 2 km's... but can only deliver half that dps to a target at 15 km's.

A HM Drake outputs 350-450 dps consistently beyond 50+ km's.
An Arty Cane outputs 400-500 dps to targets closer than 30 km's, but drops off to 200-300 dps for targets at 70 km's.

These numbers are different, but nowhere near the "missiles are obsolete" level.

Revelation CEO wrote:

Frankly Mr. Richard to call the OP or his post Silly, because you either did not read, or are simply stuck in your own little world of wanting to be superior, is just rude. The OP makes a solid point, and I do not know many who use Missiles out side of PVE. The accepted standard fits for most if not all PVP ships is based around Turrets.


Now Mr. Richard if you are truly a player of less than one year, you have no basis of knowledge for your statement. EvE has been around a long time, you have not. What gives you the right to complain about Drones in another thread, and not respect this man for making a complaint of his own.


You Sir, forget yourself.


Mr. Revelation.... You come across as very condescending and rude.... You sound like an old Pot calling the new kettle black! I DO have the experience and knowledge to backup my statements.... Additionally, when you bring up cruise missiles rather than torps when looking at raw damage output, you come across as so ignorant of weapon systems that I believe Mr. Richard probbably knows more than you do, regardless of character age.


In conclusion... Mr. Richard's reply was completely reasonable, not rude, and put's the OP's whine about missiles range being nerfed well within the perspective of yesterdays changes. In contrast, your post feels condescend, pretentious, and is full of baseless counter arguments.

Would you like to try again... or perhaps you should just forget it!
Pisov viet
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-12-06 11:52:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Pisov viet
Mund Richard wrote:
Heavy missiles had better dps than any other long-range medium weapon system in game, and thus needed the nerf.

And now, beam (or railguns) have better dps than any other long-range medium weapon system in game, and thus needs a nerf.

See where this is going?
Mund Richard
#6 - 2012-12-06 12:14:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Revelation CEO wrote:
What gives you the right to complain about Drones in another thread, and not respect this man for making a complaint of his own.
Hoped someone else would reply to the rest of your post (and someone did), so I only reply to this part:
The same right that you have to make a quite personal attack on me?

No, that is not the answer I want to make.
Instead, I'll make a point:
I complained about drones multiple times, and then there were several replies, some on a different stance than mines.
Some that made me reconsider my stance.
In fact, they helped me.
I have hoped I could contribute to the OP's gameplay as have those posts to mine.

That I did it in the way that I have... That's just me being a terrible terrible person.
But I do hope the OP's oppinion on the way CCP handles missiles has improved, and maybe he'll try out the new and buffed HAMs with rigs and implants for instance.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Since half the missile systems in the game just had their damage buffed, and NONE of them had their damage nerfed

Slight correction, Heavies did get a range and damage nerf.
Pisov viet wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:
Heavy missiles had better dps than any other long-range medium weapon system in game, and thus needed the nerf.

And now, beam (or railguns) have better dps than any other long-range medium weapon system in game, and thus needs a nerf.

See where this is going?

Yes, you are right.

Let me try and phrase it differently:
Heavy Missiles did unproportionately more dps than the rest of the medium systems after considering all the different factors, according to some on the forums, and apparently also according to CCP.
(Also, they made HAMs look pretty bad, the rest of the long range weapon systems didn't do that to their short range breathren in the same class that badly. Or at least I hope they do not.)
The fact that you mention both beams and railguns may hint at how maybe things could be more balanced now.
How off or not it is, is naturally open to interpretation and discussion.
And ofc the unmentioned projectiles and their having lower dps, but in return higher volley damage, is also part of the balance, they don't need a dps buff just as much as rails/beams don't need a nerf just because of raw dps numbers.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Revelation CEO
QunSegh
#7 - 2012-12-06 14:33:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Revelation CEO
Baseless counter arguments? -shakes head-

No one ever said DPS, the OP said "round" ie volley. and point to fact that 1600 took into account for some serious shield resistances.

Oracle stats 824/5672 (no implants or rigs)
Drake HM stats 370/3226 (no implantsor rigs )
Drake HAM stats 411/1473 (no implants or rigs)
Raven Torp stats 939/5682 (no implants or rigs)
Hurricane stats 550/4015 (no implants no rigs)

(All straight from EFT, or are we denying that as fact?)

Now I admit that the Topr raven can output a lot of damage. However I stand firmly by the point that your targets are limited to Bs's and Bc's to be effective. Again Turrets rare not as limited, and point to fact any person I know whom flies a turret ship operates within there ranges, and knows how to move around the battle field as needed. In the case of Missions and PVE, your generally able to kill anything before you lose your effective range. I do thins useing the Oracle in missions quite often. It is actualy a pin to salvage due to BS and BC wrecks being 80+k out from entry point.

As reasonable is a variable term dependent on the situation, it is sort of irrivilivant. The discussion was about "potential". I do believe that was more due to the belief 1600 was a dps number.

Turrets are preferd for sniping due to range, and instant damage. Until the recent range nerf, the cerberus was capable of a hitting range above 180k. Infact the missles went beyond the maximum moded range of the ship.

I understand the frustration of the OP, because the Drake use to be a superb ship for PVE. This is only the most recent in a long line of changes that have negatively effected it. Yes they still hit for "some" damage, not that 17 is worth the cost of a missile.

Also I brought up cruise missiles because I knew for fact, after the changes, they could not hit a frigate for more than 20 damage. You expect a torpedo can do more? I have not tried but it is my understanding they are meant to hit bigger objects than cruise missiles.

Yes the oracle was a bad direct comparison. However what is your statement about the hurricane? It is the same class as the drake.

Also no one said anything else needed a nerf. It is ccp whom chooses "nerfs" as solutions. Usually they Nerf item A, and then introduce item B to do the same job at 10x the cost.

As for the personal attack, I was board. My statements were backed by fact however as posted above. I think where your understanding falters is in refrence to the Drake. Its ability to run LvL 4s has been effected. And to switch missiles types or augment with rigs, negatively effects the Drakes tanking ability.

Also the MAIN complaint of the OP was Range, not damage.

Also beams do not have more damage or range at the medium level there equal now. Never said they did. Everything should be a bit different. This quest for "balance" is one thing that is absurd.

I believe the larger issue here, and one we can all agree with is CCP should leave well enough alone. As the one guy said "see where this leads" Some of us are old and set in our ways, and we hate having to refit, and rework all of our ships because they made more changes to a very old system.

Anyhow you all ahve entertained me, so my original post was worth the effort. Ohh and by the way Gizznitt, i was no more defending the OP than you were Mr. Richard. Us old farts have to stick together when one of us starts waving our cane around. :P

But really its a game, who cares.
Mund Richard
#8 - 2012-12-06 14:52:21 UTC
Revelation CEO wrote:
Also the MAIN complaint of the OP was Range, not damage.

That is where we read it differently.

In my ears, OP complained about missiles being nerfed again and again, citing the current range nerf, and hinting at damage with the Oracle.

Replied to the constant nerfs with the buffs some missiles gained this expansion (pretty much each of them apart from HMs).

Now if the topic would be named "Heavy Missiles ranges are not what they use to be"...
But it had a generic missile in the name, a statement with complains about how missiles in general are getting nerfed and nerfed again, I've read it differently than you did.


you entertained me as well

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
John MaQmIgh
QunSegh
#9 - 2012-12-06 16:00:16 UTC
If read you will in fact see i said over the years i have played missiles get less and less. get this ( years )
My number one concern is that 35% fall off flight time is to much. 10-15 i would suck it up. Think like this if i took 35 percent of the money or say isk you made would you like that.
second i said where is the comparable missile boat that can deal the damage of and i used the oracal as an example as it put out quite a bit of damage.
in real life calling a concern that a person has silly or that it a whine shows that you have no respect for an individuals thinking and your true character. Yet you want someone else to listen to perhaps your silly whine or rant about something the word here is HIPACRIT.
Maybe some higher level of management training is needed.Maybe you just need to have respect for others
A true leader will listen to all ideas and be respectful as he in return will get respect of his peers.
As this is a game i could be nasty and say some nasty things WHY when you get your emotions so involved in a game you have some real life issues.
EVE has real life events people will always lie ,cheat. steal, too get what they want. so the real life quote and for eve should be and is what i use TRUST NO ONE and yes that is from xfiles