Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I will make 3 points in this thread.

First will be tldr; version
Second will be math and numbers only, because in this case those speak so much louder than words (Read the bold and italic parts atleast)
Third will be reasoning, explaining, and some thoughts of game mechanics. (scroll way down)

---

TLDR;

T2 mwd fitted all skills level 5

T1 Combat and attack frigs avg speed = 2807
T1 Destroyers avg speed = 1680.5
T1 Combat and attack cruisers = 1853,625
Interceptors = 3833,625
Assault Ships = 2362
Interdictors = 2284,5
Heavy Assault Ships = 1680,375
Heavy interdictors = 1457,25

Tackler ships that actually need to get close are unbalanced, ships that can operate higher ranges have similiar speed or possibly even higher speed than ships that need to get very close to be effective, for example Interdictors and heavy interdictors.

My suggestion is to raise the speed of frigate, destroyer and heavy interdictor class.

---

ALL speed numbers below are t2 mwd fitted and level 5 skills:

T1 attack and combat frigs

Rifter 3099
Slasher 3737
Breacher 3022

Condor 3430
Merlin 2814
Kestrel 2655

Tormentor 2632
Punisher 2912
Executioner 3534

Atron 3700
Incursus 3033
Tristan 2650

Average = 2807 m/s

T1 Destroyers

Coercer 1709
Dragoon 1578

Corax 1441
Cormorant 1644

Algos 1673
Catalyst 1846

Talwar 1709
Thrasher 1844

Average = 1680.5 m/s

T1 attack and combat cruisers

Maller 1584
Omen 1948

Caracal 1881
Moa 1531

Thorax 2028
Vexor 1729

Rupture 1693
Stabber 2435

Average = 1853,625 m/s

T2 Interceptors

Crusader 4009
Malediction 3944

Crow 3854
Raptor 3607

Ares 3858
Taranis 3650

Claw 4017
Stiletto 3730

Average = 3833,625 m/s

Assault Ships

Retribution 2297
Vengeance 2265

Harpy 2199
Hawk 2205

Enyo 2380
Ishkur 2319

Jaguar 2688
Wolf 2543

Average = 2362

Interdictors

Heretic 2246
Flycatcher 2175
Eris 2216
Sabre 2501

Average = 2284,5

Heavy Assault Ships

Sacrilege 1589
Zealot 1654

Cerberus 1376
Eagle 1354

Deimos 1741
Ishtar 1629

Muninn 1616
Vagabond 2484

Average = 1680,375

Heavy Interdictor

Devoter 1431
Onyx 1384
Phobos 1481
Broadsword 1533

Average = 1457,25


3rd part: Reasoning and thoughts

In eve tackling is one of the most important aspects of the game.
There are special ships for this job.
However, i feel that those ships are underpowered and simply put, not very desirable to fly because of the high probability you will lose it the first time you go and tackle.
However you need those ships in small gangs and in fleets. These days it seems that it is usually alts that fly the tackling, people are dualboxing tackling ships just because you know when you go to operation that your are probaply gonna come back in pod express. This also means, no implants for tackler dudes.

This has been the case since interdiction was introduced.

Now i cruched some numbers up there and i hope you managed to spot my point in all that avg speed etc stuff.
The gaps between ship classes are too small. CCP have modified nano's, modified deadspace MWD's so that the benefit is cap usage not speed. You cant make those 15k m/s ships anymore that easily. Flying with Snakes in 0.0 in light dictor is just madness (Madness i tell you!).

Its time to bring high speed ships back to eve, and no im not talking NanoPhoon or 8MWD scorpion. Im talking about frigate tackling, Interdiction that is rewarding.

One of the most adrenaline pumping things i have ever done in eve, was flying 200km in sabre (that had 2MSEII's fitted) into middle of enemy fleet. Dropped bubble and escaped to 50km, went in again and dropped another etc.
And survived.
In structure, but survived, needed to warp out couple of times because of all the damn drones and so on.

That was before the speed nerf when it was still possible.

Today if you fly closer than 50 km to any large fleet you die before you drop a single bubble no matter how much you try to gain transversal your speed is just not enough, not even speaking about closing in but just surviving.
Thats why you warp to wrecks and drop bubble and as soon as you light your MWD to get out of your own bubble, hostiles will lock you down and kill you. Same thing with Heavy dictors, you warp into hostile fleet, get bubble up, lose your speed and your size is comparable to the moon and die.

Okay lots of dying. Dying aint fun and that its not fun is the reason why i play.

However you gotta give those guys who do the tackilng a fighting chance. Speed is the answer.

I also am not sure why Attack/dmg ships are faster in a lot of cases than ships that are build for tackling.

In my opinion, Interceptors should be faster than they are, dictors should be faster than they are and cruiser/t2 cruiser speed is okay right now.

Also i dont get the reasoning why CCP changed the sig radius bonus that interceptors had to MWD sig radius bonus. I do believe that people should be able to choose if they fit MWD or AB or nothing at all without losing 1 of the ships bonuses.
I really believe the choice should be made by player. Give the sig radius bonus back without the MWD restiriction.

One more thing is this new thing called Micro jump drive.
If this module will become used in fleet warfare, it will seriously raise the need of "conventional" tackling, i hope that this will mean interceptors and other light ships, not faction disruptors in gallente t2/t3 ships.

Give the small vulnerable ships their only defence back please.

While that would be neat, it still doesn't solve anything for Interceptors or heavy dictors.

What i want, is to promote flying into enemy fleet, going "in there".
The real skills needed to observe your surroundings and reacting and staying alive while performing tackling.

I still think it should be difficult, and it should be very, very dangerous, but it should not be near impossible like it is now (well its possible only if your enemy dont have slightest idea what they are doing, and even then its deadly).

With nullfiers you go from:

warp -> drop bubble -> die
to
warp -> drop bubble -> warp away

There is no skill needed in either of those scenarios.

What im after is:

Fly -> drop bubble -> escape warping or flying but stay in grid -> Fly -> drop another bubble -> escape warping or flying but stay in grid. etc.

There is skill needed in that scenario but currently that is not possible. That was possible before the speed nerf (and very very difficult but extremely rewarding to do).

That said, yes all dictors should have nullifiers.
Still i dont exaclty look forward to Stabbed Eris that is unstoppable.

EDIT: Now that i think of this, i dont actually like the nullifier that much, its just too easy and just unnecessary in most cases.
Drop and warp is not difficult, and doesn not need attention from the player, that would increase dualboxing the dictor (just cloak on grid and wait for hostiles warp in in your main, switch to alt, press warp->drop bubble -> warp to safe and cloak.

Not exacty like it should be imo.

Then please explain to me why in your opinion Hacs need to be faster than Hics ?

I still think Hics need the speed buff, and that the speed penalty of using their bubble should be removed.

But most importantly Destroyer/interdictors and frigates (including t2) need more speed.

Shameless Bump.

Ceptors with only
Average = 3833,625 m/s?!

soem one dosnt fly ceptors often most are speed rigged and hardwired to get 5k/ms

You did read that all those ships are mwd fitted only yes ?

You can hardwire and speed rig everything else also in this game. Cruisers usually have more slots to do that also.



The problem that needs fixing is that the speed gap between ship types is too small.

Ceptors are fine if you compare them to BS but its ridicilous that cruisers can achieve faster speeds than destroyer class can when fitted "regularly".

So my point is that destroyers and frigates should get more speed.

I just 1 min ago approached inside 250km Naga fleet, they hit Sabre going over 4100 km/s with max transversal angle.

Theres something that needs fixing.

Wait a minute:
A typical interceptor travels at 5 km / s.
A typical "fast tackler" t1 frigate travels about 4 km/s.
A typical fast cruiser travels around 2.5 km / s.

In general, a fast tackle frigate is already much faster than even the fastest cruisers..... So why do they need more speed?

True, an MWD dessie travels 1.5-2 km/s in general, but they aren't designed to chase down fast cruisers and tackle them. I see no problems with it being easy to gank them when they attempt to fulfill this role.... And at 200 km's, even if the sabre traveled at 5 km/s, much of the radial movement is undermined by its distance. In perfect orbit, it has a radial velocity of 0.025 rad/s, which is right about the tracking speed of 425 Railguns (not using Spike). To put the tracking into perspective, A Naga would hit that sabre as if it was sitting still at Optimal + 1 Falloff, and will deal about 50% of EFT's dps to it.

Do you know why frigs are much better than dessies for the role you're describing? It's because Sig Radius plays a HUGE role in the damage a ship receives... A MWD destroyer has a 300-400mm sig radius... which is near the sig size of LARGE weapons... If you used a frigate instead of a sabre, that sig radius alone would reduce the probability of a hit by 50%, and if you use a fleet inty (w/ a sig reduction bonus to MWD's), the sig radius reduction would reduce the probability of hitting with large guns by 75+%. Then, when you include tracking too, an inty is able to spiral while dodging most attacks whereas a Sabre get's wtf pwned.

I think tackle frigates and inties are very speedy at the moment, and I don't particularly see a need to increase them. Just because some cruisers can outrun most destroyers, doesn't mean that destroyers are broken and need to have their speed increased...

I do not know how much fleetfight experience you guys have, but i do know that we are talking about different scenario here.
It seems you see view things as 20vs20 battles when im talking more about 100vs100 battles.

Also you talk about ceptors, and i have said ceptor speed is okay if you go and compare it to bs.

However if dessie's would get speed increase all frigates should get speed increase too to avoid this exact same situation, that exists between destroyers and cruisers atm happening destroyer - frigate.



Im not gonna start swinging dicks around but i do say this: even tho i have been away from eve over a year, I do have enough experience to say i know what im talking about.