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Returned player, Nostromo "macro?" Question

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Serenity Gyro
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-12-04 08:29:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Serenity Gyro
Hey eve forum, Been a long while since I've been on here haha,

Anyway, in short, I first quote If I've posted off topic or in the wrong section give me a headsup, and I apologize in advance,

Secondly,

This "macro" Business, Now, I really don't understand this,

By macro do CCP mean Any form of stringed keystrokes? The rules, which i have read in the EULA basically to my knowledge (correct me if im wrong) state if I use my razer nostromo (See here http://pcgogo.com.au/images/uploads/Razer-Nostromo.jpg) To give me benefits above other players I'm breaking the T&C's Of my subscription,


However, What im confused about is the term "macro" If i bind one key on the nostromo to say T For Target instead of my keyboard (T) is this considered a macro by CCP? as technically its off the keyboard but is not a string of keys.

Second question, If for some reason i bind say one key on the nostromo to press F1+F2+F3 that would be considered an unfair advantage and bannable by CCP no as that would be a macro and a string of keys?


Thirdly and utmost, if what I've stated above is wrong, If i leave my nostromo plugged into the Pc, But it is not being used in game (I choose to use my keyboard to be a more even and fair player in comparison to the macro nostromo) Would just having the nostromo software given to me by razer running in my background be enough to accuse me of being a "macroer" and ban me?


What I'm confused about is how a macro board such as the above could be seen as a bot etc, I'm still required to press the keys manually on the nostromo rather than being afk etc.


So, Any kind of input or knowledge would be great, I have no idea what it means by the term "macro" and if its referring to an AI Bot or just a string of keys As i said, Im back after probably a year and a half off, I have no idea about the EULA and I want to be a fair and genuine player because well, I hate unfair advantages, fair and square tyvm. Thankyou.


Kind regards Serenity G.
Kehro Urgus
Dark Nebula Academy
O X I D E
#2 - 2012-12-04 08:36:50 UTC
Best bet is to petition asking for clarification but as far as I know as long as you are actually at the keyboard and not running an automated script you will be ok.

Yeeee! 
Serenity Gyro
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-12-04 08:50:09 UTC
Thanks for the Reply Kehro, in the mean time would you say I'd be safe just running the keyboard and leaving the nostromo plugged in? I've just sent off a petition so I'll see how that all works out, Thanks again bud!
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-12-04 08:54:39 UTC
Well, 2nd thread about this type of "Macro" using.

Other thread did petition and posted the result (which technically is forbidden)

It's found here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2260197#post2260197

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Kehro Urgus
Dark Nebula Academy
O X I D E
#5 - 2012-12-04 08:55:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Kehro Urgus
I don't see why not. I've seen GMs ok other keyboards with similar capabilities and having it plugged in and not being used while a petition is in progress shoud keep you out of hot water.

BTW that thing looks interesting. I never heard of it and I've found playing EVE with a standard keyboard and mouse to be clumsy as hell to the point of it not being very enjoyable.

Yeeee! 
Serenity Gyro
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-12-04 09:06:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Serenity Gyro
Thanks Kehro and J'poll

In regard to what you've posted J'poll, That does in a sense answer my question, however he's running a keyboard with macro's, this is just a dedicated board for macro's therefore I'd say in theory It could be a different case, it runs different drivers to the blackwidow keyboard and is integrated via Windows Kernel to the windows system itself, to err on the side of caution ill await the petition, Still Thankyou for the link,

Also Posting the result of the petition on forums is a no?

So if i get the yes all clear, or the no not ok from CCP I should not post the answer here on the forums regarding the answered petition? I thought someone else might ask the same question in the future?

(First I've heard of this technicality)
Kehro Urgus
Dark Nebula Academy
O X I D E
#7 - 2012-12-04 09:13:28 UTC
Serenity Gyro wrote:
Thanks Kehro and J'poll



So if i get the yes all clear, or the no not ok from CCP I should not post the answer here on the forums regarding the answered petition?

(First I've heard of this technicality)


Again as far as I know directly posting GM correspondence with their name is a no no. Merely reiterating the decision reached in a petition is ok.

Yeeee! 
Serenity Gyro
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-12-04 09:16:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Serenity Gyro
Brilliant, Thanks Kehro And J'poll
Serenity Gyro
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-12-04 09:42:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Serenity Gyro
Kehro Urgus wrote:
BTW that thing looks interesting. I never heard of it and I've found playing EVE with a standard keyboard and mouse to be clumsy as hell to the point of it not being very enjoyable.


Just read that sorry bud,

Trying not to go off topic too much its just an additional keyboard that you can bind extra keys too, its a pretty decent bit of hardware.

Just jump on razers site and checkout the "nostromo" ,

Thanks again bud, best wishes, if i get the all clear from the GM should grab it i guess man =P

Note: (Not intended for advertising purposes)
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-12-04 09:45:12 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Serenity Gyro wrote:
Thanks Kehro and J'poll

In regard to what you've posted J'poll, That does in a sense answer my question, however he's running a keyboard with macro's, this is just a dedicated board for macro's therefore I'd say in theory It could be a different case, it runs different drivers to the blackwidow keyboard and is integrated via Windows Kernel to the windows system itself, to err on the side of caution ill await the petition, Still Thankyou for the link,

Also Posting the result of the petition on forums is a no?

So if i get the yes all clear, or the no not ok from CCP I should not post the answer here on the forums regarding the answered petition? I thought someone else might ask the same question in the future?

(First I've heard of this technicality)



Forums rules wrote:
9. Private communication between the Game Masters, Eve Team members, moderators and administrators of the forum and the forum users is not to be made public on these forums or by any other venue.
You are not permitted to publicize any private correspondence (including petitions) received from any of the aforementioned.


as seen on http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Forum_rules

Then again, as stated in the thread I linked here. I don't see why this post would be forbidden as it's a petition that can help others and CCP should have a similar statement no matter what type of input device is used.

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Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

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Serenity Gyro
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-12-04 09:47:34 UTC
Forums rules wrote:
9. Private communication between the Game Masters, Eve Team members, moderators and administrators of the forum and the forum users is not to be made public on these forums or by any other venue.
You are not permitted to publicize any private correspondence (including petitions) received from any of the aforementioned.




Thankyou for that J'poll I'll chuck that into the memory bank, thanks again buddy,
Keno Skir
#12 - 2012-12-04 09:50:08 UTC
I think you're fine, call it a hunch.

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Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-12-04 10:09:05 UTC
Fundamentally, the spirit of the rule is to prevent client-level auto-piloting via "bots". Setting up a keyboard - or a gamepad like the Nostromo or the Logitech G13 - to execute a string of commands on a single button-press may fall within the letter of the rule, but the intent is to stop farmers that use bots to mine or run missions for hours on end without human intervention, using crude AI to manage the steps that normally require human intervention.

I don't have any standing, but I'll hazard a guess that they classify devices like the Nostromo as keyboards, and that if you've got a keystroke sequence that doesn't last any longer than it takes you to take a normal breath and let it out, you're probably okay. If there's an IF/THEN anywhere in the sequence, that might cause trouble, but CCP security is generally looking at activities with timespans of hours, not seconds.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#14 - 2012-12-04 14:13:24 UTC
Hi,

In all such cases the best bet is to ask the GMs but basically, as other people have said, the current thinking is that if the device isn't actually playing the game for you, then it's ok.

Macro is kind of a misnomer, in this sense, automating repetitive keystrokes for you is fine. A program that gives you advantages that you wouldn't have or a system that allows the game to be played without you needing to be in control of the game client, is absolutely not allowed.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#15 - 2012-12-04 19:10:41 UTC
ISD Suvetar wrote:
Hi,

In all such cases the best bet is to ask the GMs but basically, as other people have said, the current thinking is that if the device isn't actually playing the game for you, then it's ok.

Macro is kind of a misnomer, in this sense, automating repetitive keystrokes for you is fine. A program that gives you advantages that you wouldn't have or a system that allows the game to be played without you needing to be in control of the game client, is absolutely not allowed.

Loosely quoting: "It is okay as long as it doesn't give you an unfair advantage over others." I'm fairly certain I could dig up an old CCP forum post with that if required.

I've also petitioned for clarification in the past. Forum rules prevent discussing it, though I think I can get away with stating the rule is very reasonable.
Arcaus Rotrau Romali
Empyrean Enterprise Conglomerate
#16 - 2012-12-04 19:42:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Arcaus Rotrau Romali
Do a search on the G11 or G13 Logitech keyboards, you should find a GM statement that such devices and their associated software are acceptable.

edit: post number 3

http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1291641&page=10#274

Quote:
Posted - 2010.04.23 15:51:00 - [274]

Edited by: GM Lelouch on 23/04/2010 15:52:45
Hello there,

To make a long story short, automation of gameplay is not permitted; players must be manually issuing the commands to control their character(s) at all times.

Our stance on programs such as Synergy and hardware/software combination such as the G15 keyboard is that they can be legitimately used as long as gameplay isn't automated. Synergy allows you to move your mouse cursor to multiple different monitors which are hooked up to different computers and we do not have any qualms with players using the program for this purpose. If Synergy was used in some way to control your accounts for you without a need for you to be at your keyboard, then that would not be allowed, but I am not aware of such a functionality with this program. If Synergy is used in conjunction with some other program to automate gameplay, it would not be permitted. G15 "macros" which allow you to group different commands into one keypress are allowed. For example, setting your G1 key to press F1, F2, F3 and so on for you with one key press is allowed (although this specific command is not as useful as it was before now that we have weapon grouping).

An exceedingly complex G15 macro which would effectively automate gameplay, such as mining, without a need for the player to be present at his keyboard would be against the EULA, regardless of whether the player utilizing said macro is sitting at his keyboard at the time!

Lastly, multiboxing is allowed, and programs designed for multiboxing in mind which allow a player to manually issue the same command to multiple game clients at the same time are allowed. In the same vein as what has been stated above, the player must be manually sending the commands; if a program is automating those commands for you, then it would be considered a breach of our EULA.

I hope this clears up this matter.

Best regards,
Senior GM Lelouch
EVE Online Customer Support


edit 2: This may or may not still be the valid GM verdict.
Serenity Gyro
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-12-05 14:11:59 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
[quote=Serenity Gyro]Thanks Kehro and J'poll

Then again, as stated in the thread I linked here. I don't see why this post would be forbidden as it's a petition that can help others and CCP should have a similar statement no matter what type of input device is used.


I hope so for my sake thankyou,

To all the above, I thank you again for This information I understand now that As long as I Am manually Issuing The Commands I Should be Alright,

Thankyou to all, I'll await the GM reply to be certain but until then, Thanks eve forum! :D
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#18 - 2012-12-05 15:13:50 UTC
If you're doing something more complex than could be achieved with the following, then you're possibly at risk.

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2012/01/96b1dd66d14d480ad79404e313ce12b7.jpg

Blink

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Katarina Reid
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-12-05 23:14:15 UTC
Remaping is fine but automation is banable.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-12-05 23:32:38 UTC
Serenity Gyro wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
[quote=Serenity Gyro]Thanks Kehro and J'poll

Then again, as stated in the thread I linked here. I don't see why this post would be forbidden as it's a petition that can help others and CCP should have a similar statement no matter what type of input device is used.


I hope so for my sake thankyou,

To all the above, I thank you again for This information I understand now that As long as I Am manually Issuing The Commands I Should be Alright,

Thankyou to all, I'll await the GM reply to be certain but until then, Thanks eve forum! :D


When you get the answer from the GM. Could you post the decision here.

Not posting the petition exactly but something like.

"Nostromo is / isn't allowed because....."

So that it can be used for future reference

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
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