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Drones are wet paper bags now

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#61 - 2012-12-05 13:25:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Bing Khagah wrote:
"2. If you literally only ever relied on drones to complete a mission you were doing it wrong anyway."

So they weren't a primary weapon system?
Being a primary weapon system is not the same as doing missions completely with them. Hell, even on the primary drone platforms (Domis, Rattlers), doing missions completely with drones meant you were doing them wrong - a proper mission Domi gets no more than half its damage output from the drones.

Quote:
"fyi people who run wspace sites have dealt with this for 3 years and they seem to be getting by ok "

Their content was designed from the ground up with this AI in mind. Missions were not.
...and yet, that content is still more challenging than any L4 can hope to be and is never the less doable (yes, even solo (yes, even using drones)). Their strategies for dealing with drone aggro have been in the game for almost four years now, and they can be transplanted wholesale to missions with roughly zero problems if you just choose to adapt to the new AI. People are complaining about an "issue" that was solved in mid-2009.

coolzero wrote:
good luck trying to shoot anything with sentrys within 4km range......
Quite simple, actually. The targets will be within 4km of you. There is nothing that says they must be within 4km of the sentries, and even then, there are three more variables to the tracking formula that you can manipulate to make the shot easier for them.

Souisa wrote:
does anyone know why they changed the rat ai?
Because it's better this way.
Cozmik R5
Chez Stan
#62 - 2012-12-05 13:27:30 UTC
Rensari wrote:
Waaaaa drones are useless now.


Adapt or die. Sleeper AI is awesome.

Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#63 - 2012-12-05 13:30:46 UTC
This change is and has nothing to do with adapting, pvp or anything else. it's simply dumb, it makes (for me) using light drones a frustrating experience.

I prefer dual-boxing with mach/tengu already so I don't have to use drones, but decided to try some different things last night, like a solo rattlesnake and rattlesnake/mach combo. It was great, a target painter on the "Snake or Mach is more than enough to keep aggro of sentries and heavies because the new AI hates EWAR.

But try to use mediums (if there are any npc cruisers on the field) and that changes, and OMG lights just get snuff out on launch. I've tried pulling off aggro with target painters, high dps, webs, ECM, ECM bursts, and remote repping, but the frigs lock so fast at least 1 or two light drones will be damn near alpha's if any npc frigates are in range of you.

So back to FoF Tengu's as anti-frig support I went (again, Rattlesnake with sentries at stand-off range was quite good, i'll use that again and Vindicator with webs can kill npc frigs), but light drones get the shaft. And they weren't that good to begin with. CCP said the change was for more engaging PVE. if Engaging = annopying, this is a ccp win.

This is why some of us asked ccp to rethink laying new AI on old content rather than just making new content (fit for the new AI) and phasing out the old over time. The old missions, anomalies and complexes just don't act right now, some are too easy, some are way to hard and ccp is going to spend a LOT of time (time = money) fixing all they just broke.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#64 - 2012-12-05 13:31:34 UTC
Cambion Andedare wrote:
[
Making something challenging makes indeed a better game. However, making something more tedious doesn not.


Well said.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2012-12-05 13:32:04 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
starbelt stacy wrote:
*snipped deleted posts* - CCP Eterne


FYI, the mission runners soloing level 4 and generating immense amounts of isk are a PROBLEM for the economy, hence why people were calling for lvl 4 to get nerfed right outta highsec. This was an idea I personally disagreed with, but I'm glad to see a solution could be thought of that would make everyone happy. That is, making the AI more difficult and in turn making lvl 4 missions much more difficult to solo causes an interesting chain of events:


  • serious mission runners who are capable of adapting do so, and keep at it - I wouldn't be surprised if level 4 mission running becomes a small gang activity soon, thereby sharing out some of the wealth that is generated by the mission. My corp is primarily a mission-running corp, and we've had some minor problems running level 4s solo, but nothing we haven't been able to beat. That being said, we are all in agreement that whenever possible, we should at least pair up.


  • the general increase in difficulty of level 4 missions will make them less desirable to run solo, meaning in general that fewer people will run them, and most people who want to stick with missions will discover that they can still make money running level 3s. Less lvl4 mission running in general will reduce the massive isk generation that solo level 4 mission running has thus far generated


  • making all missions more difficult will also improve the economy by separating the wheat from the chaff, so to speak - players like yourself that want easy mode and stomp their feet when they don't get their way will disappear (hopefully) which will, again, reduce the massive isk generation that's been taking place lately in high sec.


  • I hear you asking "how does this make everyone happy? I'm not happy" Obviously, you will be when you leave. See? Everybody wins


  • and finally... if people are finding a reason to form fleets to run lvl 4s, it may in fact encourage more people to step it up in their fleets, move out to low sec, and try some level 5s. some low-sec wealth generation would balance out some major economical issues in the game


It's a nerf to high sec mission running without actually directly nerfing high sec mission running. Or, in forum speak, it's a stealth mission nerf. IMHO, dev stealths are the best stealths Blink

Additionally, if you think CCP is going to have any financial problems from the teeny few people unsubbing who probably use plex on their accounts anyway due to far-too-much isk generation from level 4 missions... well, let's just say there's a reason the tantrum posts like yours have not been addressed by the devs.

And lastly, when you leave... can I have your stuff??

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Marcus Caspius
#66 - 2012-12-05 13:37:57 UTC
Reidar Oskald wrote:
Rensari wrote:
Drones die ridiculously fast now. I know their HP haven't been changed or anything, but with the new AI they get targeted en masse by rats and can die in just a few seconds.

For example, I was doing the mission Damsel in Distress with my Rattlesnake. I have maxed out drones skills and Gallente BS V. So my drones get a bunch more hit points. I put out 5x Ogre IIs and was targetting the Battleships that were orbiting me at around 3-4k. The cruisers / battlecruisers would target an Ogre II and within a few seconds it would be into structure. I was watching them like a hawk, and was able to pull them in before they died... but if they had been further than say 4k from my ship? Dead Ogres.

Even after reaggroing everything and launching them again, the same thing would happen.

This is insane. Drones are pretty much worthless against NPCs now in higher level missions or content with a lot of rats.

I understand that we want to get away from the AFK drone boat style, but fully maxed out HP Ogre IIs dying in seconds is ridiculous.

I propose that CCP reduce damage to Drones from NPCs by 95%. This way no HP changes will affect PvP. Also this way you still can't AFK as your drones will still get popped. But it will give durability to drones such that they can be useful again for attacking targets over a longer range from your ship, and a careful player will be able to micro them back and forth to the ship.

Also it would be nice to have some sort of self repairing ability to repair drones armor / hull once inside your drone bay.


CCP has been wanting people to get away from Soloing Level 4's, I think, and this is one of the changes. Granted, it does hurt a lot of PVE, I know in Null doing sites is more difficult due to this as well. Also, there is a 'bug' I've seen mentioned that CCP knows about and is working around for this, I won't give details but its there if you search.

Reidar


It is (was) one of the few things that one could do solo. Just bear in mind not everyone live in the EU/US tz so to play EvE some things have to be able to be solo'd!

Grammatical error and spelling mistakes are included for your entertainment!
Cambion Andedare
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2012-12-05 13:41:25 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:


  • making all missions more difficult will also improve the economy by separating the wheat from the chaff, so to speak - players like yourself that want easy mode and stomp their feet when they don't get their way will disappear (hopefully) which will, again, reduce the massive isk generation that's been taking place lately in high sec.


It only hurts people that have as primary income missionrunning
-> less money -> less money for pew pew in PvP -> less PvP -> better?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#68 - 2012-12-05 13:42:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Cambion Andedare wrote:
It only hurts people that have as primary income missionrunning
-> less money -> less money for pew pew in PvP -> less PvP -> better?
...and those people then get an incentive to look beyond their little hub for that additional cash.

-> less money -> looks for new avenues for making money -> more competition in other areas -> same money -> more PvP of all kinds, more variation in ISK-making -> better.
Rensari
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#69 - 2012-12-05 13:43:14 UTC
I updated my main post to reply to common critiques seen in this thread.
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#70 - 2012-12-05 13:45:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Funky Lazers
Remiel Pollard wrote:
making all missions more difficult will also improve the economy by separating the wheat from the chaff, so to speak - players like yourself that want easy mode and stomp their feet when they don't get their way will disappear (hopefully) which will, again, reduce the massive isk generation that's been taking place lately in high sec.


You have it all wrong.
Missions did not get more difficult.

The only thing that changed you can't use drone boats now, which discriminats Gallente race hard.
I have already 2 friends cancelled accounts because they do not enjoy playing guns n' missiles. They like drones.
Ya I will have their stuff, which is sad.

Also,
Quote:
the mission runners soloing level 4 and generating immense amounts of isk are a PROBLEM for the economy
you have it all wrong too.

The main problem for the ecenomy are Bots and "those who buy cheap and sell high".
80% of missions runners are solo/casual players who enjoy shooting things.

Whatever.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2012-12-05 13:46:06 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cambion Andedare wrote:
It only hurts people that have as primary income missionrunning
-> less money -> less money for pew pew in PvP -> less PvP -> better?
...and those people then get an incentive to look beyond their little hub for that additional cash.

-> less money -> looks for new avenues for making money -> more competition in other areas -> same money -> more PvP of all kinds, more variation in ISK-making -> better.


Yeah... if you can't think of other ways to make ISK in this game, you are just bad at EVE.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#72 - 2012-12-05 13:46:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Rensari wrote:
"Adapt"

Love the one word troll answers. This would sort of be the equivalent of a new feature being added to guns that they overheat and become worthless after about 10 seconds. Then I troll your post and say "adapt". LOL
...except, of course, that it's not even remotely the same since the means and methods for adaptations are already well-known and that nothing is rendered worthless by this change (or by the adaptation itself).

It's not a troll answer. It's a valid suggestion that gets brushed aside because it doesn't conform with what the people who want to keep doing what they've always been doing wish they could do.

Funky Lazers wrote:
The only thing that changed you can't use drone boats now, which discriminats Gallente race hard.
So in other words, nothing changed, since you can still use drone boats, nor is there any discrimination against Gallente since there's only really one standard mission ship that doesn't use drones -- the Tengu, which is a mid-level kind of ship anyway.

Quote:
The main problem for the ecenomy are Bots and "those who buy cheap and sell high".
Actually, while they are a problem too, they are of a rather different kind. They do not inject the same amounts of ISK into the system, and it's that ISK injection that is one of the main concerns with the current state of the economy.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2012-12-05 13:47:14 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Spc One wrote:
What patch notes don't tell you:

EXPANSION ABOUT NERFS, Because Missiles were ok for 6 years now but now they're overpowered.

a.) PVE

1. All missile ships are now obsolete (very low range and decreased damage)
2. All Drone ships are now obsolete due to new AI (your drones get targeted as soon as you deploy them)
3. All ships that rely on drones for protection against frigates are obsolete
4. NPC's tracking disruptor now affects optimal range and falloff instead of just optimal range, which makes 800mm's minmatar ships obsolete in pve.
5. All npc complexes and ark missions are now insanely hard to do, you can't use drones
6. There are only few ships that can save you from mission if you loose all of your drones and get stuck (scrambled with npc agression).
7. New meta 9 - 14 drone modules are obsolete for pve, since ai will always shoot your drones.
8. If you use marauders or other ships for guristas missions you'll get perma jammed, there's nothing you can do since you can't use drones.

b). PVP
1. All Heavy Missile ships are now obsolete
2. Drake is worst battlecruiser for pvp
3. Hurricane got nerfed so it is kinda useless now
4. Tengu now sucks compared to other t-3's
5. Very hard to gank someone ratting in low sec or 0.0 with stealth bombers or frigate since npc's will switch targets



Lets see...

PvE:

1. Golem, Raven, any ship that uses HAM's or Rockets. These all just got a nice buff making them far from useless.
2. If you literally only ever relied on drones to complete a mission you were doing it wrong anyway.
3. See above.
4. Don't fly anymore so can't comment.
5. Oh noes, things aren't easy peasy ISK printers now? That's a shame. How about you adapt?
6. As with numbers 2 and 3. You seem to be stuck in a logic loop at this point.
7. AI always shot at your drones, now they do it a little more. Drones mods are still effective, please adapt.
8. I don't even...How about not accepting the mission? Or I don't know.......take someone with you!! Would you like your nose wiped as well as your hand held?

As for the PvP side of things I am less knowledgeable and therefore not qualified to make definitive statements. But considering your "Facts" I don't think I can do any worse.

1. This is called rebalancing. People used FOTM, it gets balanced, people switch to new FOTM and so on. See a pattern?
2. See above.
3. Please qualify your assertion with some actual facts. I fly the Hurricane and it seems to work just fine for me. Adapt.
4. This is just a stupid comment. I also fly a maxed out HAMgu, believe me, it is far from useless.
5. Awww, you mean you might have to work for your kills now? That's a crying shame.....Roll


In summation, it appears you have no idea what game you are playing.

This.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#74 - 2012-12-05 13:51:48 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cambion Andedare wrote:
It only hurts people that have as primary income missionrunning
-> less money -> less money for pew pew in PvP -> less PvP -> better?
...and those people then get an incentive to look beyond their little hub for that additional cash.

-> less money -> looks for new avenues for making money -> more competition in other areas -> same money -> more PvP of all kinds, more variation in ISK-making -> better.


The fact that screwing up something then gives you incentive to find less screwed up things doesn't make the intital screwing up a good thing.

And then there are the unintended consequences of making the intial problem they were trying to solve worse.

Before this change I found it too annoying to use drones in Forsaken Hubs for example. now a simple target painter on my mach is enough to keep aggro off the 4 sentries I launch from the mach and the 5 sentries I launch from a rattle snake or the 13 I launch from a carrier.

Then end result is I just pumped a WHOLE lot more isk into my wallet last night than I would have been able to the day before, and it wasn't "more engaging pve game play" is was "use target painter and keep all aggro on my mach".

Hell it's even better than my mach/fof tengu set ups, as now all dps is concentrated rather than sometimes scattered (fof missiles attakc the closest target so sometimes the mach and tengu would shot different things).

This change turned my 140-150 mil an hour anomalies into 200 mil an hour anomalies....

How is any of this great for the game?
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2012-12-05 13:54:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
Everyone needs to stop whining. "Boo hoo you nerfed my virtual internet videogame spaceship." Oh well, poor you, actually having to work for virtual spaceship game money now.
Jonathan Malcom
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2012-12-05 13:55:03 UTC
"Adapt" has long been the motto of those unaffected by a negative change.

I wrote a rather lengthy post some time ago in the features and ideas section about making PvE more interesting by making rats much tougher. So it is a concept that I'm certainly in favor of.

But this change, as I said when they proposed it, doesn't do that. Enemies aren't smarter in any way that makes the game more fun. They just shoot drones now.

So rather than make PvE any more fun or dynamic or interesting, you simply have one less tool to work with.

It's a bad change and they should feel bad for half-assing something so important.
ashley Eoner
#77 - 2012-12-05 13:55:46 UTC
Quote:

Additionally, if you think CCP is going to have any financial problems from the teeny few people unsubbing who probably use plex on their accounts anyway due to far-too-much isk generation from level 4 missions... well, let's just say there's a reason the tantrum posts like yours have not been addressed by the devs.
Uh someone had to pay real money for that plex at some point. The rest of your post was about as coherent...
Lord Okinaba
Aliastra
#78 - 2012-12-05 13:59:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Okinaba
Jake Warbird wrote:
Konrad Kane wrote:

Top tip - switch ships.

Agreed. Don't like losing drones? Instead of whining on here, spend a few days to train into something else that isn't a droneboat.



All BattleShips use drones to some degree. This change doesn't just effect drone boats.

If you use gun boat or missile boat your still going to have issues.

I've been using a gun boat and had 2 sets of T2 light drones with maxed skills wiped out almost instantaneously.

I'm already learning how to approach these missions in different ways, so as I don't have to use drones at all or rarely have to. But what is the point in that, it's just a waste of my skill set as well an extinction of a once viable weapon. There's also instances where you simply can not do without drones, such as when you're pinned down by spider web drones or a frig in close orbit which has you scrammed. Good luck getting out of the latter situation without drones...
Jonathan Malcom
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2012-12-05 14:00:47 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Everyone needs to stop whining. "Boo hoo you nerfed my virtual internet videogame spaceship." Oh well, poor you, actually having to work for virtual spaceship game money now.


Child, I have over 100 million skill points. You think I'm limited in what weapon systems I use?

Shooting guns or missiles is not "actually having to work for virtual spaceship game money." Turret and missile ships are every bit as mindless in PvE as drone ships.

I'm not sure why you think having to reload makes you a superior player or puts you on some sort of moral high ground
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#80 - 2012-12-05 14:04:29 UTC
Lord Okinaba wrote:
Jake Warbird wrote:
Konrad Kane wrote:

Top tip - switch ships.

Agreed. Don't like losing drones? Instead of whining on here, spend a few days to train into something else that isn't a droneboat.



All BattleShips use drones to some degree. This change doesn't just effect drone boats.

If you use gun boat or missile boat your still going to have issues.

I've been using a gun boat and had 2 sets of T2 light drones with maxed skills wiped out almost instantaneously.

I'm already learning how to approach these missions in different ways, so as I don't have to use drones at all or rarely have to. But what is the point in that, it's just a waste of my skill set as well an extinction of a once viable weapon. There's also instances where you simply can not do without drones, such as when you're pinned down by spider web drones or a frig in close orbit which as you scrammed. Good luck getting out of the latter situation without drones...


Well said.
There are lots of alternatives to drones (i like fof missle tengu as support, web vindicator is so cool ect ect). but how does that justify screwing over a weapon system that is already annoying as all get out?

A better way would have included a new drone interface before new AI.