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Missiles and the future of caldari ships in EVE

Author
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#141 - 2012-12-05 00:17:40 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
factoring all skills lvl 5 and not fitted to a specific ship

hml II + navy = (roughly) 26 @ 64km.

This would make it the highest dps, but very close to equal range with HBL II.

Now, with high damage ammo, HML's with fury will have roughly
29 @ 32km

That's roughly equal in dps to close range arty. Now, not only can all by havy beams out range hmls, but beams and rails can out dps at close range, with long range guns.

This essentially makes hmls low dps at close range, and high dps at mid range with no long range.
Again, HBL's do have the same long range, and with less dps, but much more effective close range.

The one thing missiles had going for them was that they could out range turrets.
Now they cannot compete.

Now, with lasers you have to be within 23km with navy xray to out dps fury missiles.
Rails can out range, or out dps within 23km using navy plutonium. (best to out range so they dont' take any damage)
And Arty can out range.

This leaves hmls with a very small window in which they overpower either turret type.

beam past 23km, but only up to 64km.
Rails in that same window
and arty from 0 to 64km.

this may seem decent, but considering it's very unlikely for a fight to stay within my prime range, then I'm screwed.


Some questions with your post. Navy what? Multifreak? Navy multifreak does not have a range of 64km in Heavy Beams. You have to put aurora in the heavy beams to hit at 64km.

Also, how are you figuring falloff? Beams have a very short falloff. Their damage decreases rapidly past optimal.

I don't know whether you were paying attention to these changes while they were presented and open for comment in F&I discussion. But the idea with HMs now ia that Precision and Fury have reduced range for performance enhancments as to their chosen targets. Faction HMs are for range use now. And I'm pretty sure that Faction HMs are better than Faction Radio and even Aurora.

Regardless, when TC and TEs start affecting missile explosion parameters and range we will see how the balance appears again. If it seems like an overnerf now to you, it may be rather less when those changes take effect.


First, I said navy xray within 23km will out dps fury, and 23 is optimal, not falloff.
Also, I stated that hmls will dps beam beyond 23km and they have roughly the same engagement range.

Now, I don't see how tc/te will help missiles much when they'll also be effected by td.

That said, this nerf doesn't hurt the mass tengu and drake blobs.
They'll still have high ehp, but they'll only have to get closer.
The only people this really hurts are those that mission in these ships, but apparently we're not important/everyone seems to think we should cross train.

Imagine if I nerfed arty and told those ppl to simply cross train?
Imagine if I nerfed beams and then told those players to cross train?

Now, imagine if I nerfed the only effective weapon system out of an entire class of weapon systems.

Lets say I nerfed medium rails and they were the only effective hybrid weapon system.
Wait, didn't they just fix that f*ck up not too long ago?

Oh well. Guess it's missiles turn the be the fail weapon of choice.
Eclipse Rhade
Blades of the Exiled Angel
#142 - 2012-12-05 00:23:50 UTC
Natassia Krasnoo wrote:
I spoke to an individual who was testing this on the test servers and they essentially said the HM nerf hammer was way too strong. They are barely, (and he heavily emphasized barely a couple times), above the power of HAMs now. He said the difference was actually minute and that HAMs ROF may put them over the top. I myself haven't had the time to test this, so if anyone could confirm this it would be great.


I dont mean to be rude but you would think that the high damage short range (HAM's) weapons should out damage the long range low damage weapons (HM)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#143 - 2012-12-05 00:25:32 UTC
Eclipse Rhade wrote:
Natassia Krasnoo wrote:
I spoke to an individual who was testing this on the test servers and they essentially said the HM nerf hammer was way too strong. They are barely, (and he heavily emphasized barely a couple times), above the power of HAMs now. He said the difference was actually minute and that HAMs ROF may put them over the top. I myself haven't had the time to test this, so if anyone could confirm this it would be great.

I dont mean to be rude but you would think that the high damage short range (HAM's) weapons should out damage the long range low damage weapons (HM)

That would imply some sort of balance, yes...

Oh surprise.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Lili Lu
#144 - 2012-12-05 00:31:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Joe Risalo wrote:
First, I said navy xray within 23km will out dps fury, and 23 is optimal, not falloff.
Also, I stated that hmls will dps beam beyond 23km and they have roughly the same engagement range.

Now, I don't see how tc/te will help missiles much when they'll also be effected by td.

That said, this nerf doesn't hurt the mass tengu and drake blobs.
They'll still have high ehp, but they'll only have to get closer.
The only people this really hurts are those that mission in these ships, but apparently we're not important/everyone seems to think we should cross train.

Imagine if I nerfed arty and told those ppl to simply cross train?
Imagine if I nerfed beams and then told those players to cross train?

Now, imagine if I nerfed the only effective weapon system out of an entire class of weapon systems.

Lets say I nerfed medium rails and they were the only effective hybrid weapon system.
Wait, didn't they just fix that f*ck up not too long ago?

Oh well. Guess it's missiles turn the be the fail weapon of choice.


Concerning TDs, I really can't see how they cannot nerf the base stats further. They are already being used too suceesfully to neuter turret ships at the frig level on unbonused ships blessed with mids for fitting them. And I would bet the TD, similarly to the TC and TE effects on missiles will be rather muted in comparson to the current effects on turrets. Bonused TD boats will probably be worth watching out for, for every class of ship. But that is how things should be anyway.

EHP may be getting a nerf for all BCs anyway. The presented concept was normalizing all BCs around a 17 slot count. Even if it just a loss of the utility high on the Drake I would not be surprised to see the hp stats placed somewhere in between current tier 1 and tier 2 BCs. So yes, more weakening is coming to BCs most likely. They will not be nullsec backbones anymore I would bet. This makes both the newly buffed Cruisers and BSs more valuable. This is also good because BCs have been ruling the game for a long while.

Noone is telling you to crosstrain with this nerf. Cross training though is a very good strategy anyway. Noone should be in this game thinking one ship is all they need or one weapon system in order to run about any pve content and also to pvp with. That HMs and HM boats have been this has been a mistake. Enjoy finding new tools for different jobs. And Drakes will still be appropriate tools for some jobs. HMs will likely still be the best choice for ranged damage at the medium weapon size. They just won't be so much better.
lovatus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#145 - 2012-12-05 00:39:09 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
First, I said navy xray within 23km will out dps fury, and 23 is optimal, not falloff.
Also, I stated that hmls will dps beam beyond 23km and they have roughly the same engagement range.

Now, I don't see how tc/te will help missiles much when they'll also be effected by td.

That said, this nerf doesn't hurt the mass tengu and drake blobs.
They'll still have high ehp, but they'll only have to get closer.
The only people this really hurts are those that mission in these ships, but apparently we're not important/everyone seems to think we should cross train.

Imagine if I nerfed arty and told those ppl to simply cross train?
Imagine if I nerfed beams and then told those players to cross train?

Now, imagine if I nerfed the only effective weapon system out of an entire class of weapon systems.

Lets say I nerfed medium rails and they were the only effective hybrid weapon system.
Wait, didn't they just fix that f*ck up not too long ago?

Oh well. Guess it's missiles turn the be the fail weapon of choice.


Concerning TDs, I really can't see how they cannot nerf the base stats further. They are already being used too suceesfully to neuter turret ships at the frig level on unbonused ships blessed with mids for fitting them. And I would bet the TD, similarly to the TC and TE effects on missiles will be rather muted in comparson to the current effects on turrets. Bonused TD boats will probably be worth watching out for, for every class of ship. But that is how things should be anyway.

EHP may be getting a nerf for all BCs anyway. The presented concept was normalizing all BCs around a 17 slot count. Even if it just a loss of the utility high on the Drake I would not be surprised to see the hp stats placed somewhere in between current tier 1 and tier 2 BCs. So yes, more weakening is coming to BCs most likely. They will not be nullsec backbones anymore I would bet. This makes both the newly buffed Cruisers and BSs more valuable. This is also good because BCs have been ruling the game for a long while.

Noone is telling you to crosstrain with this nerf. Cross training though is a very good strategy anyway. Noone should be in this game thinking one ship is all they need or one weapon system in order to run about any pve content and also to pvp with. That HMs and HM boats have been this has been a mistake. Enjoy finding new tools for different jobs. And Drakes will still be appropriate tools for some jobs. HMs will likely still be the best choice for ranged damage at the medium weapon size. They just won't be so much better.


id like to know what jobs you think HM's will still be good for? they no longer have the advantage of range (drake using scourge furies ets 35km MAX) they no longer have damage and they were bottom of the pile for rate of fire anyway.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#146 - 2012-12-05 00:42:11 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
First, I said navy xray within 23km will out dps fury, and 23 is optimal, not falloff.
Also, I stated that hmls will dps beam beyond 23km and they have roughly the same engagement range.

Now, I don't see how tc/te will help missiles much when they'll also be effected by td.

That said, this nerf doesn't hurt the mass tengu and drake blobs.
They'll still have high ehp, but they'll only have to get closer.
The only people this really hurts are those that mission in these ships, but apparently we're not important/everyone seems to think we should cross train.

Imagine if I nerfed arty and told those ppl to simply cross train?
Imagine if I nerfed beams and then told those players to cross train?

Now, imagine if I nerfed the only effective weapon system out of an entire class of weapon systems.

Lets say I nerfed medium rails and they were the only effective hybrid weapon system.
Wait, didn't they just fix that f*ck up not too long ago?

Oh well. Guess it's missiles turn the be the fail weapon of choice.


Concerning TDs, I really can't see how they cannot nerf the base stats further. They are already being used too suceesfully to neuter turret ships at the frig level on unbonused ships blessed with mids for fitting them. And I would bet the TD, similarly to the TC and TE effects on missiles will be rather muted in comparson to the current effects on turrets. Bonused TD boats will probably be worth watching out for, for every class of ship. But that is how things should be anyway.

EHP may be getting a nerf for all BCs anyway. The presented concept was normalizing all BCs around a 17 slot count. Even if it just a loss of the utility high on the Drake I would not be surprised to see the hp stats placed somewhere in between current tier 1 and tier 2 BCs. So yes, more weakening is coming to BCs most likely. They will not be nullsec backbones anymore I would bet. This makes both the newly buffed Cruisers and BSs more valuable. This is also good because BCs have been ruling the game for a long while.

Noone is telling you to crosstrain with this nerf. Cross training though is a very good strategy anyway. Noone should be in this game thinking one ship is all they need or one weapon system in order to run about any pve content and also to pvp with. That HMs and HM boats have been this has been a mistake. Enjoy finding new tools for different jobs. And Drakes will still be appropriate tools for some jobs. HMs will likely still be the best choice for ranged damage at the medium weapon size. They just won't be so much better.


Well, I would assume that in the case of the drake, this nerf will kill it's use as a HML boat.
Honestly, most drake fleets aren't exactly sitting at 80km killing targets.. So odds are they'll just fit hams with a ham buff, and the ehp of the drake, they'll be really powerful.

As far as the Tengu, this HML nerf won't kill hml tengus in pvp by any means.
This truly only effects mission runners.
They'll still have over 600 dps with bs tank, cruiser size and velocity, and the versatility that is given to t3's, plus the 100mn ab fit.
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#147 - 2012-12-05 00:53:34 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

As far as the Tengu, this HML nerf won't kill hml tengus in pvp by any means.
This truly only effects mission runners.
They'll still have over 600 dps with bs tank, cruiser size and velocity, and the versatility that is given to t3's, plus the 100mn ab fit.


If you think it only effects mission runners, you clearly have no clue that alot of alliances will either be modifying their tengu doctrines, or just outright abandoning them.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#148 - 2012-12-05 00:58:23 UTC
Silk daShocka wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

As far as the Tengu, this HML nerf won't kill hml tengus in pvp by any means.
This truly only effects mission runners.
They'll still have over 600 dps with bs tank, cruiser size and velocity, and the versatility that is given to t3's, plus the 100mn ab fit.


If you think it only effects mission runners, you clearly have no clue that alot of alliances will either be modifying their tengu doctrines, or just outright abandoning them.


Naa, they will still have 5-600 dps at up to 80km.

That's still pretty effective.

That said though, with hams they're looking at 800 dps or more with rage using 4 bcu and to be honest, many of the ships involved will be within 30km anyway.
HydroSan
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2012-12-05 00:58:59 UTC
At least the AI doesn't kill all of your missiles making them useless!
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#150 - 2012-12-05 01:06:23 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Silk daShocka wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

As far as the Tengu, this HML nerf won't kill hml tengus in pvp by any means.
This truly only effects mission runners.
They'll still have over 600 dps with bs tank, cruiser size and velocity, and the versatility that is given to t3's, plus the 100mn ab fit.


If you think it only effects mission runners, you clearly have no clue that alot of alliances will either be modifying their tengu doctrines, or just outright abandoning them.


Naa, they will still have 5-600 dps at up to 80km.

That's still pretty effective.

That said though, with hams they're looking at 800 dps or more with rage using 4 bcu and to be honest, many of the ships involved will be within 30km anyway.


So, what your saying is that, you have no clue that alot of alliances will either be modifying their tengu doctrines, or just outright abandoning them.

I mean I'm just trying to point out that this will affect more than just mission runners, contrary to your claim.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#151 - 2012-12-05 01:10:53 UTC
HydroSan wrote:
At least the AI doesn't kill all of your missiles making them useless!

Smartbombing ships. It'll also make your drones die even faster, bonus~~

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#152 - 2012-12-05 01:13:09 UTC
Silk daShocka wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Silk daShocka wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

As far as the Tengu, this HML nerf won't kill hml tengus in pvp by any means.
This truly only effects mission runners.
They'll still have over 600 dps with bs tank, cruiser size and velocity, and the versatility that is given to t3's, plus the 100mn ab fit.


If you think it only effects mission runners, you clearly have no clue that alot of alliances will either be modifying their tengu doctrines, or just outright abandoning them.


Naa, they will still have 5-600 dps at up to 80km.

That's still pretty effective.

That said though, with hams they're looking at 800 dps or more with rage using 4 bcu and to be honest, many of the ships involved will be within 30km anyway.


So, what your saying is that, you have no clue that alot of alliances will either be modifying their tengu doctrines, or just outright abandoning them.

I mean I'm just trying to point out that this will affect more than just mission runners, contrary to your claim.



As far as drake doctrines, hell yes... The drake is out.

Honestly I don't think CCP thought that one through.... Sure, they needed to do something to break the drake blobs, however, they're basically making the drake good for nothing more than a high sec war dec against easy targets while using hams.

The tengu on the other hand. I don't feel the nerf really hurts the tengu all that much outside of pve.
That said though, there may be alliances that drop their tengu doctrines just because of the range nerf alone.
I don't think the dps is as big a factor for the tengu, but the range is devistating.

However, I don't think it kills the tengu.
There may be some alliances that drop their tengu doctrines, but at least the tengu will still be effective in fleet combat.

The drake though is dead outside of hams in high sec.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#153 - 2012-12-05 01:15:10 UTC
HydroSan wrote:
At least the AI doesn't kill all of your missiles making them useless!


If npcs dampen your optimal, then yes.

However, tracking disruption directly doesn't make much difference against approaching npcs cause they're too dumb to use tactical approaching.

However, against all other ewar types, missiles are just as effected.
Kanta Kansene
Agentes in rebus
#154 - 2012-12-05 01:27:10 UTC
I haven't had a chance to try missioning since the patch went live, but if I find that I have difficulties in my drake, I guess that's more reason for me to either use my CNR or work on gunnery skills and use any of the other battlecruisers that everyone has trained for to avoid having to train racial battlecruisers
Trin Ellecon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#155 - 2012-12-05 09:09:27 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
gu, but the range is devistating.

However, I don't think it kills the tengu.
There may be some alliances that drop their tengu doctrines, but at least the tengu will still be effective in fleet combat.

The drake though is dead outside of hams in high sec.

Are you kidding? The drake still has an incredible tank and with HAMs can throw out great damage. All that's happened is the drake has shifted to being a better gate brawling boat.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#156 - 2012-12-05 09:28:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Natassia Krasnoo wrote:
I spoke to an individual who was testing this on the test servers and they essentially said the HM nerf hammer was way too strong. They are barely, (and he heavily emphasized barely a couple times), above the power of HAMs now. He said the difference was actually minute and that HAMs ROF may put them over the top. I myself haven't had the time to test this, so if anyone could confirm this it would be great.


Because a missile of the same weight class with half the range of the other should do less damage as well. They never had intentions for anyone to use HAMs. They were purely psychological in nature. You'd see how bad they were and be thankful for what the HM gave. Roll
ihcn
Life. Universe. Everything.
Clockwork Pineapple
#157 - 2012-12-05 09:32:22 UTC
Baww, its literally the end of the world because I have to adapt to a new system.
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#158 - 2012-12-05 09:35:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarn Kugisa
Quit Whining
The only thing that got nerfed were the OP Heavy Missiles, which were better at range and damage projection than any other comprable weapon system. CCP nerfing them was long time coming.

I transferred to Amarr ships months ago, not due to the missile changes, but because missiles are slow to kill things, 99% of the time don't have EM bonuses, which is the effective damage type of our rats. Amarr ships are much better because my ammunition costs are next to nothing per rat kill.

Sometimes I wish I didn't train for Caldari ships. Amarr is way better at PvE out here AND their skills transfer to PvP well.

TL;DR Amarr fits PB better than Caldari


ihcn wrote:
Baww, its literally the end of the world because I have to adapt to a new system.


/thread

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt

Goran Konjich
Krompany
#159 - 2012-12-05 09:44:07 UTC
So yeah. Missiles will be useful as before. Stop complaining about nothing please Roll

I'm a diplomat. Sometimes i throw 425mm wide briefcases at enemy. Such is EVE.

Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#160 - 2012-12-05 09:45:09 UTC
Tarn Kugisa wrote:
Quit Whining
The only thing that got nerfed were the OP Heavy Missiles, which were better at range and damage projection than any other comprable weapon system. CCP nerfing them was long time coming.

I transferred to Amarr ships months ago, not due to the missile changes, but because missiles are slow to kill things, 99% of the time don't have EM bonuses, which is the effective damage type of our rats. Amarr ships are much better because my ammunition costs are next to nothing per rat kill.

Sometimes I wish I didn't train for Caldari ships. Amarr is way better at PvE out here AND their skills transfer to PvP well.

TL;DR Amarr fits PB better than Caldari


ihcn wrote:
Baww, its literally the end of the world because I have to adapt to a new system.


/thread


"Quit whining about Caldari sucking !"

"By the way I switched to Amarr from Caldari because missiles suck."

RollUgh