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NPC AI Behaivior: Lessons Learned
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Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-12-04 19:55:11 UTC
Berluth Luthian wrote:

I agree with you guys...most of my analysis is apples and oranges. But, my question to you is how survivable do you expect your drones to be? I'm a young minmatar pilot and it probably shows, but it seems that we have two extremes when it comes to profitability of farming with a drone boat...

If drones can tank and need no micromanagement, then the upper limit of their profitability is their dps.
If they have a weak tank and micromanagement drastically cuts their dps, then they become a terrible source for damage.

The thing I think that is another aspect is that most drone boats are built to also be heavy tanking ships. To give a ship both a source of dps that highly difficult to counter and is accompanied by a large tank would be overpowered.


I'd like to see a balance somewhere.

That is, drones are destructible. BUT at the same time, if I'm paying close attention, nearly impossible to destroy. This is currently false - drones are too fragile and move too slow, so no matter how fast I am, they still die. If a drone gets webbed, it will die virtually guaranteed unless I'm right on top of it. And if I am on top of it, that nullifies drone damage projection. If damage projection is nullified, all drone boats must get +1 slot to their layout, because currently they're -1 slot for damage projection and flexibility. Flexibility comes next. Many drone boats can't even carry 2 full flights of drones, which means there is NO flexibility. As in, 75 bandwidth, 125 bay on a new Vexor.

Some of it can be remedied. Such as fixing a remote repairer. But because of range on the RR on unbonused hull, damage projection is once again off, see paragraph above. Plus, depending on whom you fight, RR may be ineffective/useless. A drone can get aphaed before your RR has a chance to cycle (since armor repair happens at the end of the cycle).

Bottom line, at this stage in the game, I feel drones need to be completely re-done. From scratch. Totally torn down and rebuilt. Old code erased and replaced, etc. I mean, did you know that they can't tweak the rate of fire on drones because it is hard-coded into the game? The limit of 5 drones per ship is also relatively new (Trinity, 2008?), previously ships could release many more drones. There's many modules that are missing, or are done wrong. For example, Drone Navigation Computer and Omnidirectional Tracking Link should really be merged into a single module. Drone Control Unit should be usable on subcaps - you'd be trading turrets for drones. There are no rigs to increase drone damage, besides sentries. Armor tanked Gallente drones have the same sig radius as shield tanked Minmatar drones, despite being considerably slower. Etc., etc. There are so many things fundamentally wrong with drones that it will take writing a book just to list them all.
Mund Richard
#22 - 2012-12-04 20:30:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:

Bottom line, at this stage in the game, I feel drones need to be completely re-done. From scratch. Totally torn down and rebuilt. Old code erased and replaced, etc. I mean, did you know that they can't tweak the rate of fire on drones because it is hard-coded into the game? The limit of 5 drones per ship is also relatively new (Trinity, 2008?), previously ships could release many more drones. There's many modules that are missing, or are done wrong. For example, Drone Navigation Computer and Omnidirectional Tracking Link should really be merged into a single module. Drone Control Unit should be usable on subcaps - you'd be trading turrets for drones. There are no rigs to increase drone damage, besides sentries. Armor tanked Gallente drones have the same sig radius as shield tanked Minmatar drones, despite being considerably slower. Etc., etc. There are so many things fundamentally wrong with drones that it will take writing a book just to list them all.

Well, previously more drones could be released, now drones do more damage I believe.
Drone nav and omnitrack as the same module would create some headaches: mounting too many of the first one would make scout drones "unable" to engage frigates (too many overshooting with MWD), while 3 of the later one is pretty much awesome for gardes.

But the merge/rework is not a bad call. Maybe omnidirectional and drone links?
A new module that adds resistances and/or reduces signature for drones?

DCU on SubCap...
Had a rough time coming up with an abuse for it, but maybe an Ishtar would become brutal in PvP? Suddenly 9 bonused Ogre IIs, ASBs, prop, scram, web, DC and 4 DDU in the lows.
1386 dps
And a full spare flight.
Oh wait, bandwidth would be the issue there... 696 dps with hammerhead IIs.
That's... not THAT bad, it's less than what it can do with 5 Garde IIs, but while on the move.

Oh wait... 9 ECM drones... Forget about DCU on subcaps.

Drone damage rigs... the damage amp is nice now, would have the same stacking penalty and hit hard by it, I'd rather have a drone HP rig. Well, drone rigs eat CPU and a lot of it, so not sure how I would fit it on a cruiser. Prolly not at all, and go for a tanking one.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#23 - 2012-12-04 20:57:10 UTC
Sarcasm beginning:
Really? High sec Carebears don’t make billions of ISK per day watching missions melt away at the mere sight of a Carebear’s ship warping in? All the while being done by a quad boxing evil computer genius that has cornered the EVE market and solved the ‘Theory of everything’ but refuses to tell anyone.

I was under the impression by low sec and Nul sec people that the LVL4 missions were an ISK faucet that made billion of ISK and prevented the rest of eve from functioning at all, surely the whole game was in danger of being mothballed due to the huge amount of ISK mission runners were making, so much was made it prevented capitals from undocking, it prevented moons from producing moon goo, and turned off Suns at random in remote parts of the universe.

And they can’t afford a few simple drones?

Sarcasm ends.

Mission running is no less noble than the rest of EVE but constantly rebuffed as the bane of Low and Nul sec.

I am confident that the drone Nerf Imposed by the AI upgrade will be overcome with a little ingenuity. I have already found that sending drones (Warriors, for speed) off to the farthest target has the enjoyable side effect of getting the annoying hard to hit ships to chase them. So everything that was to close is now at optimal and dies quite quickly.

Think of it more as Bait than Ammo.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2012-12-04 21:12:51 UTC
goldiiee wrote:
...Mission running is no less noble than the rest of EVE but constantly rebuffed as the bane of Low and Nul sec.

I am confident that the drone Nerf Imposed by the AI upgrade will be overcome with a little ingenuity. I have already found that sending drones (Warriors, for speed) off to the farthest target has the enjoyable side effect of getting the annoying hard to hit ships to chase them. So everything that was to close is now at optimal and dies quite quickly.

Think of it more as Bait than Ammo.




I trust that high sec missioners will continue in their ingenuity. I like the bait idea. Don't forget that there are oftena number of structures that you can bounce your drones around to as well.
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#25 - 2012-12-04 21:18:45 UTC
goldiiee wrote:
I am confident that the drone Nerf Imposed by the AI upgrade will be overcome with a little ingenuity. I have already found that sending drones (Warriors, for speed) off to the farthest target has the enjoyable side effect of getting the annoying hard to hit ships to chase them. So everything that was to close is now at optimal and dies quite quickly.

Think of it more as Bait than Ammo.

I've been waiting for someone else to think of this. Someone who's actually had a chance to try it. Good to hear it works.
Mund Richard
#26 - 2012-12-04 22:59:48 UTC
Zor'katar wrote:
goldiiee wrote:
I am confident that the drone Nerf Imposed by the AI upgrade will be overcome with a little ingenuity. I have already found that sending drones (Warriors, for speed) off to the farthest target has the enjoyable side effect of getting the annoying hard to hit ships to chase them. So everything that was to close is now at optimal and dies quite quickly.

Think of it more as Bait than Ammo.

I've been waiting for someone else to think of this. Someone who's actually had a chance to try it. Good to hear it works.

Webbing and painting orbiting frigs before unleashing light drones also seems to work, at least so far they haven't de-agressed me, as long as I did the EWAR first, and released the hounds of war later.
And then return them and onwards with sentries! Well, sitting still, but still.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#27 - 2012-12-04 23:13:32 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Shock horror, a missioner might take along a buddy in a destroyer.


How ignorant. Destroyers with aggro changing ships don't stand a chance, if some >= BC rats fire to them, they can't but leave VERY fast or get popped.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#28 - 2012-12-04 23:17:43 UTC
goldiiee wrote:


I am confident that the drone Nerf Imposed by the AI upgrade will be overcome with a little ingenuity. I have already found that sending drones (Warriors, for speed) off to the farthest target has the enjoyable side effect of getting the annoying hard to hit ships to chase them. So everything that was to close is now at optimal and dies quite quickly.

Think of it more as Bait than Ammo.



This only works in those missions where NPCs don't web the drones.

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Mund Richard
#29 - 2012-12-04 23:39:37 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
goldiiee wrote:
I am confident that the drone Nerf Imposed by the AI upgrade will be overcome with a little ingenuity. I have already found that sending drones (Warriors, for speed) off to the farthest target has the enjoyable side effect of getting the annoying hard to hit ships to chase them. So everything that was to close is now at optimal and dies quite quickly.
Think of it more as Bait than Ammo.

This only works in those missions where NPCs don't web the drones.

So far, from my experience, rats seemed to go for the same drone more often or not, and then the next.
If you unlease a full flight of T1s, at least 2-3 are bound to make it out to 50km even if some are webbed.

If someone finds the tactic to be flawed (beyond the increased dronebay need) from experience, do tell us.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Kithran
#30 - 2012-12-04 23:47:15 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
goldiiee wrote:
I am confident that the drone Nerf Imposed by the AI upgrade will be overcome with a little ingenuity. I have already found that sending drones (Warriors, for speed) off to the farthest target has the enjoyable side effect of getting the annoying hard to hit ships to chase them. So everything that was to close is now at optimal and dies quite quickly.
Think of it more as Bait than Ammo.

This only works in those missions where NPCs don't web the drones.

So far, from my experience, rats seemed to go for the same drone more often or not, and then the next.
If you unlease a full flight of T1s, at least 2-3 are bound to make it out to 50km even if some are webbed.

If someone finds the tactic to be flawed (beyond the increased dronebay need) from experience, do tell us.


Simple flaw - what do you do when there is no distant target to send your drones at (e.g. World's Collide final room).

Kithran
Mund Richard
#31 - 2012-12-04 23:49:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Kithran wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:
So far, from my experience, rats seemed to go for the same drone more often or not, and then the next.
If you unlease a full flight of T1s, at least 2-3 are bound to make it out to 50km even if some are webbed.

If someone finds the tactic to be flawed (beyond the increased dronebay need) from experience, do tell us.

Simple flaw - what do you do when there is no distant target to send your drones at (e.g. World's Collide final room).
Kithran

Pray there is a large collidable somewhere in the room that doesn't flag you with concorde? Or light logi drones?
Furthest battleship as backup plan, but yes, that already makes it a lot worse, good point.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
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