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Missiles and the future of caldari ships in EVE
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Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#101 - 2012-12-04 22:14:30 UTC
BuckStrider wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
BuckStrider wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
the only thing that got nerfed are heavies, is the drake the only ship you use, being a complete chince by never fitting HAMs on it? a HAM drake is great.

HAM tengu with javelins will be pretty powerful too.


Not in fleet fights.


not in spam 3000 ship fights no, which is why only maelstroms ever


Now that heavies are getting nerfed, you remove yet another ship from 0.0 pvp

And you wonder why newer players don't want to go to 0.0 and retention is so hard

Can't wait to see how many players give up using bombers because of this new (and really dumb) Micro Jump Drive



Yeah, gonna eduate you a bit here.

MJD has a 12 second spool up time. That means you don't move for 12 seconds after hitting the button.

I'll be generous and give you a 2 second reaction time, meaning you hit the button 2 seconds after seeing the bombers decloak and launch. But, as you'll see in a moment, even if you hit it perfectly your reaction time does not matter.

Bombs detonate 10 seconds after launch.

So unless you hit the button at least 3 seconds before the guy fires the bomb, you're still going to get hit. In which case, unless you're in a freighter, you would have warped out by then anyway.

Ignoring the fact that even 7 bombs, the max you can launch at one area at a time, will not kill a battleship.

Ignoring the fact that you aren't going anywhere anyway if he forgoes the bomb and just decloaks next to you and tackles you.


Micro Jump Drives have no bearing on stealth bombers whatsoever.
KrakizBad
Section 8.
#102 - 2012-12-04 22:18:58 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Null bear Tengu tears... Delicious!

We null players spend all our time running L3's. Yep. Or did you mean 'former null bears who lost all their space because they wouldn't undock'?
Lili Lu
#103 - 2012-12-04 22:21:03 UTC
Welp. Threads like this are just a necessary price to be paid for rebalancing the op **** in the game. Besides, it is also amusing seeing the blind sperging rage, while these folks can't see the benefits to other things (like other missiles). I have 11.6 mil sp in missiles and not regretting any of it. Speak for yourself OP. Those with more perspective will not see this set of changes as you do.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2012-12-04 22:32:33 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Kali Starchaser wrote:
So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice?



This issue is people are comparing heavy missiles to pulse lasers and blasters, instead of long range weapons like railguns and beams. Heavy missiles are a long range weapon. That means they're supposed to do less damage than short range weapons, which is why they got nerfed.


Here's the problem:

Heavy Missile II - 11.2 dps
Railgun II - 13.7 dps
Beam Laser II - 14.5 dps

1x medium weapon each, base stat without skill or ship bonus

You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs.

Lili Lu wrote:
Welp. Threads like this are just a necessary price to be paid for rebalancing the op **** in the game. Besides, it is also amusing seeing the blind sperging rage, while these folks can't see the benefits to other things (like other missiles). I have 11.6 mil sp in missiles and not regretting any of it. Speak for yourself OP. Those with more perspective will not see this set of changes as you do.


You do realize the nerf bat isn't limited to HMLs, right? While the 10% dmg nerf only applies to HML, it isn't the real nerf. 10% is barely noticeable. It's the exp velocity and exp radius that kills it. Remember when ppl whine about having -40% dmg? They're not lying, it's just applied dmg as they see it in game, not eft warrioring dmg. Why CCP feels Rage torp exp radius need to be even bigger than it was, I'll never know...
KrakizBad
Section 8.
#105 - 2012-12-04 22:37:00 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs.

You have completely ignored the damage type concentration of missiles, which is their greatest advantage.
Lili Lu
#106 - 2012-12-04 22:45:31 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Here's the problem:

Heavy Missile II - 11.2 dps
Railgun II - 13.7 dps
Beam Laser II - 14.5 dps

1x medium weapon each, base stat without skill or ship bonus

You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs.

You apparently don't have any experience with range stats on ammo. It appears you simplistically pluged tech II high damage ammo into long range turrets and started jumping up and down and pointing furiously. Hint - check out the range on that high damage ammo. Sure at very short range long range turrets will have a slight dps advantage. But very quickly HMs start overtaking and by max range they very much so out dps long range medium turrets, even still after this nerf.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2012-12-04 22:48:32 UTC
KrakizBad wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs.

You have completely ignored the damage type concentration of missiles, which is their greatest advantage.


You mean how if you don't use kinetic, you lose your ship dmg bonus? Winmatar switching between em and explosive while keeping ship dmg bonus is clearly not as good as kinetic, since they're not "pure?"Lol
lovatus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#108 - 2012-12-04 22:49:26 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Here's the problem:

Heavy Missile II - 11.2 dps
Railgun II - 13.7 dps
Beam Laser II - 14.5 dps

1x medium weapon each, base stat without skill or ship bonus

You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs.

You apparently don't have any experience with range stats on ammo. It appears you simplistically pluged tech II high damage ammo into long range turrets and started jumping up and down and pointing furiously. Hint - check out the range on that high damage ammo. Sure at very short range long range turrets will have a slight dps advantage. But very quickly HMs start overtaking and by max range they very much so out dps long range medium turrets, even still after this nerf.


if thats the case how come a t2 heavy launcher with scourge furies gets out tanked by a rat cruiser?
Lili Lu
#109 - 2012-12-04 22:51:15 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
You do realize the nerf bat isn't limited to HMLs, right? While the 10% dmg nerf only applies to HML, it isn't the real nerf. 10% is barely noticeable. It's the exp velocity and exp radius that kills it. Remember when ppl whine about having -40% dmg? They're not lying, it's just applied dmg as they see it in game, not eft warrioring dmg. Why CCP feels Rage torp exp radius need to be even bigger than it was, I'll never know...

Yeah, missiles should have nothing to compensate for.

Turret users have had to fit TCs and TEs for years to make their weapons perform. Missile users have just been, fit launcher, fit damage mod, done. That will be changing. The TC and TE changes are coming to eat back the alterations on some of those explosion and range parameters you are complaining about. We'll see what the picture looks like then.

Meanwhile yes, I'll keep using a phoon. I'll look forward to trying out the new Caracals and Bellicoses. Etc.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#110 - 2012-12-04 22:52:24 UTC
sabre906 wrote:

You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs.
..



Yeah, that's not at all what I said. I'm pointing out why people are complaining. HM's should do less damage than short range weapons, because they are a long range weapon.

They do slightly less (if your numbers are even correct) than long range turrets because turrets can miss. There are only 2 ways you will miss with a missile: you're shooting at something too far away, or your target is moving faster than the missile.
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#111 - 2012-12-04 22:52:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Silk daShocka
sabre906 wrote:
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Kali Starchaser wrote:
So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice?



This issue is people are comparing heavy missiles to pulse lasers and blasters, instead of long range weapons like railguns and beams. Heavy missiles are a long range weapon. That means they're supposed to do less damage than short range weapons, which is why they got nerfed.


Here's the problem:

Heavy Missile II - 11.2 dps
Railgun II - 13.7 dps
Beam Laser II - 14.5 dps

1x medium weapon each, base stat without skill or ship bonus

You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs.


Heavy Beam Laser II Using aurora ammo 9.6 dps
250MM Railgun II Using Spike ammo 9.11 dps
Heavy Missile Launcher II using 12.9 dps using faction ammo

Is what I get using Pyfa that is suposed to be updated for Retribution. Either my client isn't accurate, or you are using short range ammo and comparing it to HML. I'm fairly certain the short range ammo on these turrets has range that's comparable to HAMs, not HMLs

If the case is that my client is inaccurate, taking 10% off of the figure above should give us the current damage.

90% of 12.9 = 11.61
Still better than it's peers. Let's not mention the advantage that missiles have as targets get closer to your ship, should that situation arise.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#112 - 2012-12-04 22:52:53 UTC
KrakizBad wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Null bear Tengu tears... Delicious!

We null players spend all our time running L3's. Yep. Or did you mean 'former null bears who lost all their space because they wouldn't undock'?

Why does -A- have to do with this?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#113 - 2012-12-04 22:55:26 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Artillery requirements, yes. 425 AC + 1600 plate fits or some 220 AC + 2 med neut + 1600 plate fits not so much. Also none of these were PvE fits and the cane even before not a lvl 4 go to for newer pilots. Tengu pilots realistically should have the skills to get the most out of their launchers to begin with and have a bonus to make HAM's more workable should they go that route. In fact I'd like to know from a tengu pilot if that does work.


Allowing the cane to fit arty's is actually a very powerful buff, expecially for mission running. Even more so when you consider that unlike the drake and tengu, the cane is not limited to bonuses of one damage type.

Silk daShocka wrote:

So, do you have a loki fit that does comparable dps at 70km?


The issue was not with hmls, but with the drake and tengu.
that said, the drake and tengu will probably get rebalanced with substantial nerfs.
So, if they don't refund the damage and range nerfs that came along with hmls on these two ships, then they'll become useless.

With these nerfs has come nothing but the loss of hmls as an effective weapon system on strategic cruisers and battlecruisers.
This doesn't too much effect cruisers themselves because many of them can't target that far anyway.

You'll see, the only thing that will change with drake and tengu fleet doctrines is that they'll either be abolished, or they'll fit hams.

Truthfully, hams drake and expecially tengus will pwn now.

My tengu fit that I used in missions had roughly 721 dps with a hm-705 implant.
However, if I took that same fit and put hams on it I would have had 838 dps, cap stable with a 10mn afterburner and a target painter. Now, that fit will have even more damage.
Close to, if not over 900 dps, plus the bonus of guided missile precision. That's on top of being cap stable, 536m/s, 150m sig, and an omni tank with 334 pure em at its weakest. Imagine if I fit mission specific resists. Oh, and that has a target painter.

So, if you really feel that hmls were the problem, think again.
lovatus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#114 - 2012-12-04 22:57:44 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
sabre906 wrote:

You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs.
..



Yeah, that's not at all what I said. I'm pointing out why people are complaining. HM's should do less damage than short range weapons, because they are a long range weapon.

They do slightly less (if your numbers are even correct) than long range turrets because turrets can miss. There are only 2 ways you will miss with a missile: you're shooting at something too far away, or your target is moving faster than the missile.


the hole in your logic is that hml's also got a 25% range reduction, putting them at a rather distinct disadvantage compared to the other long range weapon groups
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2012-12-04 22:58:58 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
lovatus wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Here's the problem:

Heavy Missile II - 11.2 dps
Railgun II - 13.7 dps
Beam Laser II - 14.5 dps

1x medium weapon each, base stat without skill or ship bonus

You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs.

You apparently don't have any experience with range stats on ammo. It appears you simplistically pluged tech II high damage ammo into long range turrets and started jumping up and down and pointing furiously. Hint - check out the range on that high damage ammo. Sure at very short range long range turrets will have a slight dps advantage. But very quickly HMs start overtaking and by max range they very much so out dps long range medium turrets, even still after this nerf.


if thats the case how come a t2 heavy launcher with scourge furies gets out tanked by a rat cruiser?


Exp radius and exp velocity, that's the real nerf, not the 10% dmg nerf.

In any case, take out multi and put in xray for same base range as HML, at which point the laser does 12.5 dps and missile 11.2 dps.

Not that matters much because gun's applied dmg is far higher.

If that rat moves, hml's range decreases. If it doesn't move, laser hits perfectly and hml for maybe half paper dps, if that.Lol
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#116 - 2012-12-04 22:59:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Kitty Bear
Silk daShocka wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Kali Starchaser wrote:
So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice?



This issue is people are comparing heavy missiles to pulse lasers and blasters, instead of long range weapons like railguns and beams. Heavy missiles are a long range weapon. That means they're supposed to do less damage than short range weapons, which is why they got nerfed.


Here's the problem:

Heavy Missile II - 11.2 dps
Railgun II - 13.7 dps
Beam Laser II - 14.5 dps

1x medium weapon each, base stat without skill or ship bonus

You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs.


Heavy Beam Laser II Using aurora ammo 9.6 dps
250MM Railgun II Using Spike ammo 9.11 dps
Heavy Missile Launcher II using 12.9 dps using faction ammo

Is what I get using Pyfa that is suposed to be updated for Retribution. Either my client isn't accurate, or you are using short range ammo and comparing it to HML. I'm fairly certain the short range ammo on these turrets has range that's comparable to HAMs, not HMLs


Thing is your doing excactly what your complaining about him doing
Comparing T2 ammo types with non T2 ammo types



but oh yeah .. theres about 9 different types of faction Hybrid Ammo
Low Range/High DPS through to Long Range/Low DPS ... CN Missiles are just 1 range/dps value



and everyone conveniently ignores the transversal vs explosion velocity comparison because it stuffs whatever argument they have against missiles.
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#117 - 2012-12-04 23:01:52 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Artillery requirements, yes. 425 AC + 1600 plate fits or some 220 AC + 2 med neut + 1600 plate fits not so much. Also none of these were PvE fits and the cane even before not a lvl 4 go to for newer pilots. Tengu pilots realistically should have the skills to get the most out of their launchers to begin with and have a bonus to make HAM's more workable should they go that route. In fact I'd like to know from a tengu pilot if that does work.


Allowing the cane to fit arty's is actually a very powerful buff, expecially for mission running. Even more so when you consider that unlike the drake and tengu, the cane is not limited to bonuses of one damage type.

Silk daShocka wrote:

So, do you have a loki fit that does comparable dps at 70km?


The issue was not with hmls, but with the drake and tengu.
that said, the drake and tengu will probably get rebalanced with substantial nerfs.
So, if they don't refund the damage and range nerfs that came along with hmls on these two ships, then they'll become useless.

With these nerfs has come nothing but the loss of hmls as an effective weapon system on strategic cruisers and battlecruisers.
This doesn't too much effect cruisers themselves because many of them can't target that far anyway.

You'll see, the only thing that will change with drake and tengu fleet doctrines is that they'll either be abolished, or they'll fit hams.

Truthfully, hams drake and expecially tengus will pwn now.

My tengu fit that I used in missions had roughly 721 dps with a hm-705 implant.
However, if I took that same fit and put hams on it I would have had 838 dps, cap stable with a 10mn afterburner and a target painter. Now, that fit will have even more damage.
Close to, if not over 900 dps, plus the bonus of guided missile precision. That's on top of being cap stable, 536m/s, 150m sig, and an omni tank with 334 pure em at its weakest. Imagine if I fit mission specific resists. Oh, and that has a target painter.

So, if you really feel that hmls were the problem, think again.


So what your saying, is that you don't have a loki fit that does comparable dps at 70km. Ok gotcha.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2012-12-04 23:05:31 UTC
Silk daShocka wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Artillery requirements, yes. 425 AC + 1600 plate fits or some 220 AC + 2 med neut + 1600 plate fits not so much. Also none of these were PvE fits and the cane even before not a lvl 4 go to for newer pilots. Tengu pilots realistically should have the skills to get the most out of their launchers to begin with and have a bonus to make HAM's more workable should they go that route. In fact I'd like to know from a tengu pilot if that does work.


Allowing the cane to fit arty's is actually a very powerful buff, expecially for mission running. Even more so when you consider that unlike the drake and tengu, the cane is not limited to bonuses of one damage type.

Silk daShocka wrote:

So, do you have a loki fit that does comparable dps at 70km?


The issue was not with hmls, but with the drake and tengu.
that said, the drake and tengu will probably get rebalanced with substantial nerfs.
So, if they don't refund the damage and range nerfs that came along with hmls on these two ships, then they'll become useless.

With these nerfs has come nothing but the loss of hmls as an effective weapon system on strategic cruisers and battlecruisers.
This doesn't too much effect cruisers themselves because many of them can't target that far anyway.

You'll see, the only thing that will change with drake and tengu fleet doctrines is that they'll either be abolished, or they'll fit hams.

Truthfully, hams drake and expecially tengus will pwn now.

My tengu fit that I used in missions had roughly 721 dps with a hm-705 implant.
However, if I took that same fit and put hams on it I would have had 838 dps, cap stable with a 10mn afterburner and a target painter. Now, that fit will have even more damage.
Close to, if not over 900 dps, plus the bonus of guided missile precision. That's on top of being cap stable, 536m/s, 150m sig, and an omni tank with 334 pure em at its weakest. Imagine if I fit mission specific resists. Oh, and that has a target painter.

So, if you really feel that hmls were the problem, think again.


So what your saying, is that you don't have a loki fit that does comparable dps at 70km. Ok gotcha.


Or you can think of it this way: he doesn't have a tengu fit that does more than half a loki's applied dps at 30km.

Why don't you go in game, load a hml, shoot a rat, and see how much of that paper dps you get, at any range.Lol
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#119 - 2012-12-04 23:07:54 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Silk daShocka wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Kali Starchaser wrote:
So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice?



This issue is people are comparing heavy missiles to pulse lasers and blasters, instead of long range weapons like railguns and beams. Heavy missiles are a long range weapon. That means they're supposed to do less damage than short range weapons, which is why they got nerfed.


Here's the problem:

Heavy Missile II - 11.2 dps
Railgun II - 13.7 dps
Beam Laser II - 14.5 dps

1x medium weapon each, base stat without skill or ship bonus

You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs.


Heavy Beam Laser II Using aurora ammo 9.6 dps
250MM Railgun II Using Spike ammo 9.11 dps
Heavy Missile Launcher II using 12.9 dps using faction ammo

Is what I get using Pyfa that is suposed to be updated for Retribution. Either my client isn't accurate, or you are using short range ammo and comparing it to HML. I'm fairly certain the short range ammo on these turrets has range that's comparable to HAMs, not HMLs


Thing is your doing excactly what your complaining about him doing doing
Comparing T2 ammo types with non T2 ammo types



but oh yeah .. theres about 9 different types of faction Hybrid Ammo
Low Range/High DPS through to Long Range/Low DPS ... CN Missiles are just 1 range/dps value



and everyone conveniently ignores the transversal vs explosion velocity comparison because it stuffs whatever argument they have against missiles.




Yeah, only I used T2 ammo for the turrets because the faction ammo was worse, all of it. Whereas the faction ammo for HM has higher dps numbers than precision. I chose to not use Fury, since it will "only" go to 47km.

I mean I'd be glad to use faction ammo on the turrets if you want to see even lower numbers for turrets that don't really reflect the best ammo choice.

Turret deal with transversal just the same, that's why not many people compare it. The difference is, missiles dont miss more often the closer the target is to you. They miss based off the targets speed and not his transversal velocity.

Either way I'd love to see the ammo types that were used when someone first quoted the numbers, since I can almost guarantee it was the close range tech 2 ammo for the turrets.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2012-12-04 23:13:57 UTC
lovatus wrote:
Dorian Wylde wrote:
sabre906 wrote:

You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs.
..



Yeah, that's not at all what I said. I'm pointing out why people are complaining. HM's should do less damage than short range weapons, because they are a long range weapon.

They do slightly less (if your numbers are even correct) than long range turrets because turrets can miss. There are only 2 ways you will miss with a missile: you're shooting at something too far away, or your target is moving faster than the missile.


the hole in your logic is that hml's also got a 25% range reduction, putting them at a rather distinct disadvantage compared to the other long range weapon groups

They fall toward the end falloff range for turrets now after skills are applied, and missile skills give greater range affect helping achieve this. they maintain consistent output, unlike the other systems in falloff and using faction ammo they beat T2 long range ammo for raw DPS output.