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Missiles and the future of caldari ships in EVE
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2012-12-04 21:07:43 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
BoBoZoBo wrote:
My Tengu was doing 113km before patch, now it is doing 70km and less DPS.

While 113 was a bit overkill, so is the nerf. I can confirm the new change is discouraging and a bit of a reach considering missiles are on the low end of the DPS pool as it is unless you have them ALL relevant skills maxed to 5. Luckily, I can fly 3 and 1/2 races to perfection.


Your max skill tengu is still workable. 70km is not much lower than the AC Mach. The Mach does 2x the dps, but also harder to speed tank. Btw, I'd imagine that 3 and 1/2 races include Winmatar? So you're good.

The people who really got butchered are noob mission runners with drakes. Go into help channel in game right now, and you'll see them "seeking help" for not breaking the tank of a cruiser rat. CCP hates noobs/new customers...

Lots of drake runners doing level 4's but not so many Hurricane/Myrmadon/Harbinger lvl 4 runners out there I'd bet. In fact the people mentioning the Hurricane nerf never complained about reduced lvl 4 capabilities. Apparently CCP decided caldari new pilots would be better on the same level as other races new BC pilots.
lovatus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-12-04 21:08:22 UTC
CausticS0da wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Missile changes are just bittervets whining.

I'm glad that CCP realized it's "EVE Online", not "Caldari Online". Other races have been neglected far too long, I'm glad to see the buffs to the other 3 races.


What???

The only thing missile boats were really ever that good for were PVE...

You can argue that the drake and tengu were great pvp ships, but lets look at the facts.

Hmls had great range... Little bit OP, sure.

drake has a massive passive tank, and can be even more devistating using hams cause it can out tank its opponent.

Tengu has speed, cruiser sig radius, battleship class tank, battleship class dps, and can be fitted for just about any situation.


These two ships do not constitute caldari being OP.

Look at Winmatar.

Sleipnir - pwn
Macharial - pwn
Claymore - pwn
Hurricane - pwn
Tornado - pwn
Cyclone
Tempest + fleet
Typhoon + fleet
Maelstrom + fleet
Bhaalgorn
Vindicator
Rupture
Stabber
Blah Blah Blah, the list goes on. Minmatar are the single most versatile and most effective pvp ships in the game.
Just about any ship with the Minmatar name attached to it is one of the best ships that can be flown expecially in pvp.

As a matter of fact, there are more ships presented in pvp per race than Caldari can shake a stick at

The one thing Caldari had going for them was range. Range of hmls and cruise missiles. However, if their target had them in optimal for ANY weapon system, then they would get pwned. Caldari is the best at beating ships outside of their optimal, but cannot compete against ships in their optimal.

So, what's this about the game being Caldari online?


You missed the pwn tags on cane and tornado. There, I fixed it for you.

Also, suggesting adding fail list. Guess which race will populate it...Cool



Merlin?
Harpy?
Hookbill?
Falcon?
Scorpion?
Tengu?
Drake?
Naga?

Drake and tengu fleets have been core doctrines for many alliances over the last 2 years...


the problems with drake and tengu was they had a ridiculous passive tank, nerfing HM's wont change that. it just makes them near unusable for solo mission runners
lovatus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#83 - 2012-12-04 21:10:21 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
BoBoZoBo wrote:
My Tengu was doing 113km before patch, now it is doing 70km and less DPS.

While 113 was a bit overkill, so is the nerf. I can confirm the new change is discouraging and a bit of a reach considering missiles are on the low end of the DPS pool as it is unless you have them ALL relevant skills maxed to 5. Luckily, I can fly 3 and 1/2 races to perfection.


Your max skill tengu is still workable. 70km is not much lower than the AC Mach. The Mach does 2x the dps, but also harder to speed tank. Btw, I'd imagine that 3 and 1/2 races include Winmatar? So you're good.

The people who really got butchered are noob mission runners with drakes. Go into help channel in game right now, and you'll see them "seeking help" for not breaking the tank of a cruiser rat. CCP hates noobs/new customers...

Lots of drake runners doing level 4's but not so many Hurricane/Myrmadon/Harbinger lvl 4 runners out there I'd bet. In fact the people mentioning the Hurricane nerf never complained about reduced lvl 4 capabilities. Apparently CCP decided caldari new pilots would be better on the same level as other races new BC pilots.


the hurricane nerd still let them something to work with though because projectile weapons got a reduction in pwg requirements
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2012-12-04 21:14:49 UTC
lovatus wrote:

the hurricane nerd still let them something to work with though because projectile weapons got a reduction in pwg requirements

Artillery requirements, yes. 425 AC + 1600 plate fits or some 220 AC + 2 med neut + 1600 plate fits not so much. Also none of these were PvE fits and the cane even before not a lvl 4 go to for newer pilots. Tengu pilots realistically should have the skills to get the most out of their launchers to begin with and have a bonus to make HAM's more workable should they go that route. In fact I'd like to know from a tengu pilot if that does work.
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#85 - 2012-12-04 21:20:05 UTC
BoBoZoBo wrote:
My Tengu was doing 113km before patch, now it is doing 70km and less DPS.

While 113 was a bit overkill, so is the nerf. I can confirm the new change is discouraging and a bit of a reach considering missiles are on the low end of the DPS pool as it is unless you have them ALL relevant skills maxed to 5. Luckily, I can fly 3 and 1/2 races to perfection.


So, do you have a loki fit that does comparable dps at 70km?
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#86 - 2012-12-04 21:21:59 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
BoBoZoBo wrote:
My Tengu was doing 113km before patch, now it is doing 70km and less DPS.

While 113 was a bit overkill, so is the nerf. I can confirm the new change is discouraging and a bit of a reach considering missiles are on the low end of the DPS pool as it is unless you have them ALL relevant skills maxed to 5. Luckily, I can fly 3 and 1/2 races to perfection.


Your max skill tengu is still workable. 70km is not much lower than the AC Mach. The Mach does 2x the dps, but also harder to speed tank. Btw, I'd imagine that 3 and 1/2 races include Winmatar? So you're good.

The people who really got butchered are noob mission runners with drakes. Go into help channel in game right now, and you'll see them "seeking help" for not breaking the tank of a cruiser rat. CCP hates noobs/new customers...

Lots of drake runners doing level 4's but not so many Hurricane/Myrmadon/Harbinger lvl 4 runners out there I'd bet. In fact the people mentioning the Hurricane nerf never complained about reduced lvl 4 capabilities. Apparently CCP decided caldari new pilots would be better on the same level as other races new BC pilots.


This is another one of those perpetuated myths. Drakes doing level 4 missions was never popular. It was possible to tank the mission with a drake for a longer time period than other ships but completing the mission was never practical in a Drake.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#87 - 2012-12-04 21:26:09 UTC
lovatus wrote:
from what ive experienced so far, the missile changes have been REALLY bad.
my drake has gone from putting out 500 damage per volley to less than 300, and with the unchanged cycle times on the launchers you can now get tanked by cruisers pretty easily. range has gone from 60km to around 47KM, essentially making heavy missiles unusable as a weapon as everyone else can either out range out damage or fire faster than you.


500 damage per volley? WTF? Are you grouping your weapons? Someone else in here talked about having 4 SPRs in the lows on a Drake? WTF? That is way too much tank for an L3. Learn to EVE.
Risien Drogonne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2012-12-04 21:29:14 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Lots of drake runners doing level 4's but not so many Hurricane/Myrmadon/Harbinger lvl 4 runners out there I'd bet. In fact the people mentioning the Hurricane nerf never complained about reduced lvl 4 capabilities. Apparently CCP decided caldari new pilots would be better on the same level as other races new BC pilots.

Not really. While a Drake can tank level 4s and CAN do them, the DPS is very low which makes it too tedious. They move up to Ravens instead.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2012-12-04 21:29:59 UTC
Ocih wrote:

This is another one of those perpetuated myths. Drakes doing level 4 missions was never popular. It was possible to tank the mission with a drake for a longer time period than other ships but completing the mission was never practical in a Drake.

I'd be willing to bet the use of Drakes is more prevalent than you believe, though almost exclusively among newer, non-multiboxing players to do lvl 4's solo while waiting on the necessary isk and/or skills to reasonably be able to upgrade, which was enabled by the tank which remains intact and the DPS which till today counted as barely passable.
Ginger Barbarella
#90 - 2012-12-04 21:31:31 UTC
Wow... just finished checking my missile boats. Most fared fine, including the Cerb. But my Tengu is now less than 50% range than it was yesterday.

Ouch. And wow.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#91 - 2012-12-04 21:33:23 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Fury HML lose out on damage


Still better than T2 short range ammo for medium long range turrets at Fury range.

Morrigan LeSante wrote:
(lots of) range


Still better than T2 short range ammo for medium long range turrets.

Morrigan LeSante wrote:
explosion velocity


Still better than medium long range turret tracking.

Morrigan LeSante wrote:
signature radius


Still better than medium long range turret sig resolution.



Transversal Effects:- (Target Speed)
Close range - Noticable
Medium Range - Average
Long Range - Negligable

Explosion Velocity (Target Speed)
Close Range - Noticable
Medium Range - Noticable
Long Range - Noticable
lovatus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#92 - 2012-12-04 21:39:57 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
lovatus wrote:
from what ive experienced so far, the missile changes have been REALLY bad.
my drake has gone from putting out 500 damage per volley to less than 300, and with the unchanged cycle times on the launchers you can now get tanked by cruisers pretty easily. range has gone from 60km to around 47KM, essentially making heavy missiles unusable as a weapon as everyone else can either out range out damage or fire faster than you.


500 damage per volley? WTF? Are you grouping your weapons? Someone else in here talked about having 4 SPRs in the lows on a Drake? WTF? That is way too much tank for an L3. Learn to EVE.


im a low skilled player.Sad and whats an SPR?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2012-12-04 21:42:36 UTC
lovatus wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
lovatus wrote:
from what ive experienced so far, the missile changes have been REALLY bad.
my drake has gone from putting out 500 damage per volley to less than 300, and with the unchanged cycle times on the launchers you can now get tanked by cruisers pretty easily. range has gone from 60km to around 47KM, essentially making heavy missiles unusable as a weapon as everyone else can either out range out damage or fire faster than you.


500 damage per volley? WTF? Are you grouping your weapons? Someone else in here talked about having 4 SPRs in the lows on a Drake? WTF? That is way too much tank for an L3. Learn to EVE.


im a low skilled player.Sad and whats an SPR?

Shield Power Relay, increases passive shield regen.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-12-04 21:42:44 UTC
Shield Power Relay i think

2 should be plenty, leaving 2 free slot for ballistic controls
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#95 - 2012-12-04 21:43:15 UTC
uhmmm iam the only one thats happy about those change..... ShockedSad
lovatus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#96 - 2012-12-04 21:55:22 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Shield Power Relay i think

2 should be plenty, leaving 2 free slot for ballistic controls


depressingly that meagre dps was achieved using two t2 ballistic control systems.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#97 - 2012-12-04 21:58:45 UTC
Null bear Tengu tears... Delicious!
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2012-12-04 22:00:42 UTC
Kali Starchaser wrote:
So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice?



This issue is people are comparing heavy missiles to pulse lasers and blasters, instead of long range weapons like railguns and beams. Heavy missiles are a long range weapon. That means they're supposed to do less damage than short range weapons, which is why they got nerfed.
CARB0N FIBER
Derailleurs
#99 - 2012-12-04 22:05:53 UTC
Kara Vix wrote:
Train up a Vargur for PVE, it can adapt to anything and looks good doing it. My missile days are over, may my lovely nighthawk rest in peace.



Not going to work either. NPC ewar buff and drone nerf is going to make vagur a lot less useful. This "expansion" is pretty much a game wide nerf.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#100 - 2012-12-04 22:06:59 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Missile changes are just bittervets whining.

I'm glad that CCP realized it's "EVE Online", not "Caldari Online". Other races have been neglected far too long, I'm glad to see the buffs to the other 3 races.


What???

The only thing missile boats were really ever that good for were PVE...

You can argue that the drake and tengu were great pvp ships, but lets look at the facts.

Hmls had great range... Little bit OP, sure.

drake has a massive passive tank, and can be even more devistating using hams cause it can out tank its opponent.

Tengu has speed, cruiser sig radius, battleship class tank, battleship class dps, and can be fitted for just about any situation.


These two ships do not constitute caldari being OP.

Look at Winmatar.

Sleipnir - pwn
Macharial - pwn
Claymore - pwn
Hurricane - pwn
Tornado - pwn
Cyclone
Tempest + fleet
Typhoon + fleet
Maelstrom + fleet
Bhaalgorn
Vindicator
Rupture
Stabber
Blah Blah Blah, the list goes on. Minmatar are the single most versatile and most effective pvp ships in the game.
Just about any ship with the Minmatar name attached to it is one of the best ships that can be flown expecially in pvp.

As a matter of fact, there are more ships presented in pvp per race than Caldari can shake a stick at

The one thing Caldari had going for them was range. Range of hmls and cruise missiles. However, if their target had them in optimal for ANY weapon system, then they would get pwned. Caldari is the best at beating ships outside of their optimal, but cannot compete against ships in their optimal.

So, what's this about the game being Caldari online?


You missed the pwn tags on cane and tornado. There, I fixed it for you.

Also, suggesting adding fail list. Guess which race will populate it...Cool


I didn't miss the pwn, I just figured the pwn would carry itself down the list cause every last one of those ships could pwn anything of equal, or in some cases, greater value.