These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Tech is OP'd

Author
CaleAdaire
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#1 - 2012-11-30 00:28:57 UTC
So, I have what I feel is a fairly legitimate question...

Why is it that building Cap ship requires racially specific materials but Tech 2 production does not? How is it that EVERY SINGLE T2 ship is made with technetium? But what kind of post would this be if it didn't offer a solution.

Right now there is the discussion of alchemy being the fix to this, or a redistribution of tech moons. Neither of these solves the problem; Alchemy is only a pressure valve if Technetium gets too expensive (I.E. if you manipulate the market and keep the prices just right, you get max money without hitting the pressure valve), and a redistribution is a bandaid fix that would ultimately result in NAPs across nullsec.

I propose that every race of T2 ships has its own special material to make T2 production, as fleets evolve certain T2 ships will go up in value and that area of space will become more lucrative and thus make for better targets for those that are not producing the most valuable ship. At the same time, as those ships get higher in demand, other ships will look more favorable and you get an ebb and flow of ship values. Ultimately it is this ebb and flow of value that will drive more war and more conflict, but that's my two cents and it's open for criticism.

Trust in God, Have Faith in Fusion.

Rengerel en Distel
#2 - 2012-11-30 00:37:01 UTC
Pretty sure they already have ring mining as their solution to moon goo problems.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.

Lord Battlestar
CALIMA COLLABORATIVE
Atrox Urbanis Respublique Abundatia
#3 - 2012-11-30 01:36:16 UTC
It wouldn't matter, as PVP has flavor of the months all that would happen is the moon goo for the favorite race of ships would be the profitable ones, and all the others would be worth crap.

I once podded myself by blowing a huge fart.

LordSpock
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-11-30 09:03:10 UTC
CaleAdaire wrote:
So, I have what I feel is a fairly legitimate question...

Why is it that building Cap ship requires racially specific materials but Tech 2 production does not? How is it that EVERY SINGLE T2 ship is made with technetium? But what kind of post would this be if it didn't offer a solution.



What do you mean?

T1 ships made from minerals, all of them and all races require all minerals in different quantities though
T1 caps require minerals, all types of them, different quantities again. (What are you talking about caps take different racial materials?)
T2 ships require moonmaterials, made into advanced moonmaterials made into components. The difference between the races'ships is the actual Carbide flavor (advanced moonmaterials). Tungsten carbide Amarr, Fernite carbide Minmatar, Titanium carbide caldari, Crystalline carb(on)ide for Gallente.
T2 capships/jumpfreighter do the same as T2 subcaps that they require moonmaterials.

So please care to elaborate on the different racials materials?
Rutger Janssen
Chanuur
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2012-11-30 09:16:30 UTC
I might be stupid but I can't see your point.

Every cap ship uses the same components(except turret and launcher), nothing racial about that. All minerals are used in that aswell. Nothing racial about that.

T2 ships on the other hand only use race specific components, which in turn use general materials but also race specific materials, crystalline carbonide, fernite carbide, titanium carbide, and tungsten carbide.

Going down to the bottom: Cobalt, Scandium, Titanium and Tungsten are racial specfic which are R32.

So just racial thing is not the solution or the problem as it's already there.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-11-30 10:08:21 UTC
Could have swore all the T2 stuff I built took racially specific components.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#7 - 2012-11-30 17:36:32 UTC
All capital ships take the exact same components just in different quantities. Those components all use the same minerals. Nothing racial there. Except jump freighters which are T2 use racial T2 mats for plates.

All T2 ships use racial moon goo mats in addition to the non racial mats.

Tech has become the bottleneck as it is needed for everything T2 regardless of race.

The only real issue I see is that 90% of tech is I believe contained in the north west of null sec. But regardless of where those moons were the same alliances would control them.

This makes no sense to me as it is the most demanded T2 mat. Fullerides and nanotransitors are made with tech. They are needed for everything, so tech should be available everywhere in more abundance. Having an abundant supply would eliminate the bottle neck.

Would it really be so bad to have T2 ships cheap enough to be the main goto for PVP?
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-11-30 20:41:52 UTC
I think what the OP is suggesting is that since a T2 ships that are made by specific faction, and that moon goo (to some degree) is reasonably higher in some regions then other (not really regionally specific, but more abundant in specific regions) it would make more sense that T2 ships for a faction would be made using materials that are more abundant in their region of space, which does make a lot of sense.

A factions technologies / creations would more naturally be focused on the materials they have available. Sure it can be assumed that materials would be available though trading and what have you, but it would seem silly to believe that every faction in the entire eve universe would depend on one material in one area of space in the production of every high tech (tech 2) item they made.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#9 - 2012-12-03 15:07:46 UTC
Styth spiting wrote:
I think what the OP is suggesting is that since a T2 ships that are made by specific faction, and that moon goo (to some degree) is reasonably higher in some regions then other (not really regionally specific, but more abundant in specific regions) it would make more sense that T2 ships for a faction would be made using materials that are more abundant in their region of space, which does make a lot of sense.

A factions technologies / creations would more naturally be focused on the materials they have available. Sure it can be assumed that materials would be available though trading and what have you, but it would seem silly to believe that every faction in the entire eve universe would depend on one material in one area of space in the production of every high tech (tech 2) item they made.

I totally agree with this. Each race does have racially specific moon goo mats, and I believe the racial specific mats are in abundance in each races area of space.

The issue with Technetium is it is not racially specific. Every T2 item from ships to ammo has components made from Tech. It is the most highly required and demanded moon goo product. It should be the most commonly available spread fairly evenly across the universe. Why would a moon goo material not abundantly available be a base requirement for every T2 item? Yet most Technetium is from the north west area of null sec.

Technetium has become the most valuable moon goo not because it is easier to control or rare. It is because it is in such high demand it has become a bottleneck resource. Simply moving the distribution of tech spreading it around the universe will accomplish nothing. The cartel will simply follow it, and continue to control it. It might take a little more effort if it is spread out. But that will not be enough.

The only way to stop the Tech cartel is to remove it as a bottleneck resource. How? Not by moving the tech moons we already have, but by adding more. This will simply make another resource the bottleneck, but each time this is done that bottleneck becomes less restrictive. The current system controls the abundance by rarity. This would be fine if all the materials of that rarity were of similar demand. But Technetium being one of the few resources that is in every T2 item, it should also be one of the most abundant.
Beeg Boss
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-12-03 16:56:31 UTC
Of course, CCP could simply move t2 component production out from moon mining, and change it to something more effort-based like ratting/sites/ring mining w/e

But then superblocs won't have ice->isk printer!
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#11 - 2012-12-03 17:56:35 UTC
Beeg Boss wrote:
Of course, CCP could simply move t2 component production out from moon mining, and change it to something more effort-based like ratting/sites/ring mining w/e

But then superblocs won't have ice->isk printer!

True, but there is no need for that amount of work. Such a huge revamp is only in the idea stage right now and could take years to get into the game if ever.

All that is needed to break the Tech Cartel is to remove Tech as a bottleneck resource. In crease its abundance and problem solved. If needed reduce its rarity by one tier.

If the bottleneck was meant to control the amount of T2 items produced in game then it is not working as the cartel has taken control of this balance. Would increasing the supply and availability of T2 items break the game? most certainly not. At least no more than the Cartel controlling the flow of spice, er I mean Tech, has already done.

Even if they manage to find and take control of all the new tech moons, The overall supply would be so much higher they would have to drop the price just to keep moving to stock and fueling all the additional towers needed. No matter the outcome, controlling the tech market would be far less profitable than it is now.

Technetium is rarity 32. Yet it has become more valuable then all the rarity 64 moon goo's. Not because it is less common, It is more abundant than the rarity 64 moon goo's. The issue is the volume of it that is needed. It makes up a much high percentage of the total mats needed per item than rarity 64 mats. and is a requirement in every single T2 item. Removing this as a bottleneck should return the bottleneck to the R64 mats. Which are not needed in enough volume to support the massive NULL sec cartel we currently have centered around Technetium.

Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-12-03 18:31:20 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Beeg Boss wrote:
Of course, CCP could simply move t2 component production out from moon mining, and change it to something more effort-based like ratting/sites/ring mining w/e

But then superblocs won't have ice->isk printer!

True, but there is no need for that amount of work. Such a huge revamp is only in the idea stage right now and could take years to get into the game if ever.

All that is needed to break the Tech Cartel is to remove Tech as a bottleneck resource. In crease its abundance and problem solved. If needed reduce its rarity by one tier.

If the bottleneck was meant to control the amount of T2 items produced in game then it is not working as the cartel has taken control of this balance. Would increasing the supply and availability of T2 items break the game? most certainly not. At least no more than the Cartel controlling the flow of spice, er I mean Tech, has already done.

Even if they manage to find and take control of all the new tech moons, The overall supply would be so much higher they would have to drop the price just to keep moving to stock and fueling all the additional towers needed. No matter the outcome, controlling the tech market would be far less profitable than it is now.

Technetium is rarity 32. Yet it has become more valuable then all the rarity 64 moon goo's. Not because it is less common, It is more abundant than the rarity 64 moon goo's. The issue is the volume of it that is needed. It makes up a much high percentage of the total mats needed per item than rarity 64 mats. and is a requirement in every single T2 item. Removing this as a bottleneck should return the bottleneck to the R64 mats. Which are not needed in enough volume to support the massive NULL sec cartel we currently have centered around Technetium.


Gee, I won't tell you about the changes to alchemy that turns cobalt and platinum into technetium then. SHHH! it's a secret.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin

Doddy
Excidium.
#13 - 2012-12-04 12:12:44 UTC
CaleAdaire wrote:
So, I have what I feel is a fairly legitimate question...

Why is it that building Cap ship requires racially specific materials but Tech 2 production does not?


Erm this isn't true, cap shis are all built from base minerals, with a phase that has racial components. T2 ships are built from moon mins, with a phase that has racial components. It is functionally the same.