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Two Step, what about...?

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RioCrokite
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2012-12-03 13:36:05 UTC  |  Edited by: RioCrokite
So we have about 6 months more before POS revamp.

In the meantime what about proposing no self-destructing within pos shields? As far as I remember this was and is a major issue for w-space people. Changing that would encourage more pvp / invasions / mercs activity in w-space because people could have stronger economic incentive to attack poses to get those expensive ships within their SMAs. As it stands now every invasion ends up with a defender sd-ing everything of value within pos shields.

Fixing sd'ing within pos shields would give us:

- more invasions, more pew
- more tears
- more contracts for wspace MERC corps - people would rather pay mercs to defend their systems facing loosing everything to an enemy
- test grounds to see what happens after this change -> it would give you as a representative and CCP a valid argument for (or against) no seld-destructing in new revamped POSes.

I know that CSM is not a game design entity, but hell it can and should 1) represent its voters 2) influence CCP to do something in that direction. And I can see other CSM members' ideas implemented in this expansion. I also tried to check out your blog but the last merit entry is from 12th of August.
Two Step, if that is not a simple issue to deal with, at least tell us reasons why it can't be fixed quickly - complex code, other unintended effects (I can't think of any atm), other stuff? Then we could now why nothing has been done in this respect.

Regards,
Rio

tldr edit, if you're for / against this idea feel free to reply to this topic so we can see how many people care about that :P
Vanths
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-12-03 13:51:14 UTC
SDing a ship inside a POS doesn't make sense anyway, and CCPs QA is a little flakey so in before the exploit/work around:

Make it so if someone sticks the nose of their ship out the POS field, htis SD and attempts to float back in: bounce them out with a message "Self destructing ship will be ejected by the tower's automatic safety controls."

Infact if they choose to init SD inside the field, bounce them out anyway - perhaps like when the password is changed. Add a bit of drama to their attempt.
Archdaimon
Merchants of the Golden Goose
#3 - 2012-12-03 13:57:42 UTC
As if there is even going to be a force field after pos revamp Twisted

Wormholes have the best accoustics. It's known. - Sing it for me -
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-12-03 16:26:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Gnaw LF
You guys are forgetting something, I mean go back and read the information Two Step passed down from CCP. CCP is not happy with maintaining multiple inventory systems, that is why the new POS system is going to be a mini-outpost. That means you will now share the same inventory mechanic as all the other outpost in the game, which means you will be able to TRASH items and ships. No more waiting two minutes, no more screenshots from invading forces depicting the amount of stuff you had to SD, now everyone can just SHIFT-click and Trash.

Why do you guys think I have been so vocal against the new system? Because if it does bring us the benefits of all that Outposts have to offer, trashing items is going to be one of them. On the other hand I absolutely abhor the idea of preventing SDing in w-space, unlike HS / low / Null w-space is already harsh on assets of the defending force, if they get podded out they can say goodbye to them. You literally get to make one mistake as a defender in w-space and I don't see asset denial as a major problem. I also have to state that I spent a bit of time working with Hard Knocks in defense of their system this weekend, and more invasions is not what w-space needs. Trust me on that.
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#5 - 2012-12-03 16:37:51 UTC
Gnaw LF wrote:
and more invasions is not what w-space needs
'gonna farm these sleepers in peace ! Pirate

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Rengas
AQUILA INC
#6 - 2012-12-03 17:15:45 UTC
Reppyk wrote:
Gnaw LF wrote:
and more invasions is not what w-space needs
'gonna farm these sleepers in peace ! Pirate


You got it meight Blink
Ayeson
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-12-03 17:55:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayeson
Gnaw LF wrote:
and more invasions is not what w-space needs


Its hard to kill site farmers when there are none in any of the c5's C/D?

I ♥ the orthrus
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#8 - 2012-12-03 17:57:08 UTC
I've asked about SD in POS shields before, and will keep doing so. If I can't shoot from inside FFs, why can I blow up my ship?

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2012-12-03 18:04:18 UTC
Two step wrote:
I've asked about SD in POS shields before, and will keep doing so. If I can't shoot from inside FFs, why can I blow up my ship?



Two Step, thanks for the quick reply. Can you also ask if the new POS redesign will bring us the exact same inventory system as the outpost? Namely ask CCP if the Trash functionality will be available or specifically removed for POS?

Thanks.
Ayeson
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-12-03 18:08:53 UTC
Two step wrote:
I've asked about SD in POS shields before, and will keep doing so. If I can't shoot from inside FFs, why can I blow up my ship?


Technically speaking it's a self destruct, designed to destroy the ship so your enemy doesn't get it. Do ships ever get self destructed in their ports during wartime?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling_of_the_French_fleet_in_Toulon

I ♥ the orthrus
Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#11 - 2012-12-03 21:40:06 UTC
Ayeson wrote:
Two step wrote:
I've asked about SD in POS shields before, and will keep doing so. If I can't shoot from inside FFs, why can I blow up my ship?


Technically speaking it's a self destruct, designed to destroy the ship so your enemy doesn't get it. Do ships ever get self destructed in their ports during wartime?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling_of_the_French_fleet_in_Toulon


think is one would be more in context, me thinks ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling_of_the_German_fleet_in_Scapa_Flow

@glasgowdunlop #tweetfleet

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Ayeson
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-12-03 21:58:50 UTC
Glasgow Dunlop wrote:
Ayeson wrote:
Two step wrote:
I've asked about SD in POS shields before, and will keep doing so. If I can't shoot from inside FFs, why can I blow up my ship?


Technically speaking it's a self destruct, designed to destroy the ship so your enemy doesn't get it. Do ships ever get self destructed in their ports during wartime?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling_of_the_French_fleet_in_Toulon


think is one would be more in context, me thinks ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling_of_the_German_fleet_in_Scapa_Flow


Yeah, that fits perfectly. This is what the self destruct option is for.

I ♥ the orthrus
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#13 - 2012-12-03 23:04:10 UTC
Two-step, lets not cut to the chase. What we want POS warfare to be like is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Yamato

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
#14 - 2012-12-03 23:33:53 UTC
Two step wrote:
I've asked about SD in POS shields before, and will keep doing so. If I can't shoot from inside FFs, why can I blow up my ship?


Because your tears are delicious.
Kalel Nimrott
Caldari Provisions
#15 - 2012-12-04 02:52:03 UTC
Messoroz wrote:
Two step wrote:
I've asked about SD in POS shields before, and will keep doing so. If I can't shoot from inside FFs, why can I blow up my ship?


Because your tears are delicious.

You are a genious!
No, wait...

Bob Artis, you will be missed.

O7
Viaana
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-12-04 05:09:40 UTC
The only thing this will achieve is to encourage rolling more people out of W-Space, do you people not like having players to shoot?

And Two Step: If this is the only thing you can think to bring up with the CSM, along with making low class wormholes useless by only allowing small POS's in low class wormholes because "Large POS' are too difficult to attack with smaller ships", then i suggest you spend a bit more time looking at what the majority of people you represent use W-Space for. Rather than tending to the elite few who occupy the higher class wormholes and can field fleets are Capital Ships whenever they see fit.

If you guys actually want more action, maybe look at bring a few more people into Wormholes, rather than getting one last fight, and a bit of loot off of people when you kick them out. Because alot of them are looking rather barren atm.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#17 - 2012-12-04 05:19:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Two step wrote:
If I can't shoot from inside FFs, why can I blow up my ship?


Because the self destruct button is on the inside of your pod (which is inside your ship) and the things you want to shoot at are on the other side of a barrier of energy strong enough to survive literally ANYTHING for up to a day and a half.

Why can I scratch my head in bewilderment, but I can't reach through the internet and slap you for your silly question?

As far as this thread goes, its just another temper tantrum from a large alliance that gets annoyed when they can't get easy kills by blobbing a smaller group of people. When you have a small corp of 20 guys and you see 10 dreads, 4 carriers and 20-30 T3 cruisers with 4-5 logis supporting show up in your home, what are you going to do? You can't fight that.

Fair enough if there are roughly even numbers, fight, or even if you think you can kill a couple before you get podded, fight. But when the second you poke your nose out of the shield you're going to die, whats the incentive to fight? I'd be self-destructing everything I could in that situation.

Denying you your kill-mail farm is almost as good a win as killing you (but not quite).

Bring a similar sized force and I'll be laughing all the way to my ships to shoot you. Bring a blob and I'll be doing my best to deny you everything I can.

Viaana wrote:
making low class wormholes useless by only allowing small POS's in low class wormholes because "Large POS' are too difficult to attack with smaller ships"


I seem to recall an OP that i missed, where my alliance at the time (SYJ) blew up several large POSes in a c1 (or 2?) with nothing but battle cruisers and logis. Large towers can and do die to fleets of battle cruisers just fine.
Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-12-04 09:01:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Svodola Darkfury
RioCrokite wrote:

Fixing sd'ing within pos shields would give us:

- more invasions, more pew
- more tears
- more contracts for wspace MERC corps - people would rather pay mercs to defend their systems facing loosing everything to an enemy
- test grounds to see what happens after this change -> it would give you as a representative and CCP a valid argument for (or against) no seld-destructing in new revamped POSes.




I'm going to give you a break because you don't have enough PVP experience to make this kind of call, but I'll explain why this is completely wrong.

Self-destructing inside of shields only happens when an overwhelming force is bashing your tower. More invasions != more pew aside from shooting structures.

More tears? Sure. Why is that a good thing? Watch all the noobs move out of w-space and then you've got nothing left to PVP against. [edit]: and YES I mean NOTHING because the GOOD pvpers will still deny you kills in other ways.

More contracts for wspace Mercs: See above. Nobody is going to bother defending a system against overwhelming forces. They'll just wait for you to reinforce the tower and self-destruct everything in a safespot right before or right after downtime.

Finally, Self-destructing USUALLY only comes up in the case of capital ships. What if they just log that toon off for 2 weeks. What are you going to do? Camp them forever? Nerf logging off when your tower is getting sieged? The current mechanics are fine. Catch them outside their tower, bash their tower, if they want to throw away ships for the insurance that's their call.


Kairos Syndicate is a fine pvp corp, and as such I'm a little surprised that you're so short-sighted. Everything that you kill is dependent on those force-fields; if you're running around bashing towers all day who is going to be left to shoot in 3 months after the change?

TLDR; There's been a big change on the forums lately for people wanting their PVP spoon-fed to them. Buck up and get out there and do the hunting like the rest of us. There will be days where you can't catch anybody, and there will be days where you have to bash a tower to get a fight. And there will be better days where you catch an Orca dropping a tower; or a C4 fleet that's not being careful enough. That's EVE PVP. If you're not used to it by now join Red Vs. Blue. That's instant action. This is real pvp.

Svodola Darkfury.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.
Maggeridon Thoraz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2012-12-04 10:00:33 UTC
Paikis wrote:


As far as this thread goes, its just another temper tantrum from a large alliance that gets annoyed when they can't get easy kills by blobbing a smaller group of people. When you have a small corp of 20 guys and you see 10 dreads, 4 carriers and 20-30 T3 cruisers with 4-5 logis supporting show up in your home, what are you going to do? You can't fight that.

Fair enough if there are roughly even numbers, fight, or even if you think you can kill a couple before you get podded, fight. But when the second you poke your nose out of the shield you're going to die, whats the incentive to fight? I'd be self-destructing everything I could in that situation.

Denying you your kill-mail farm is almost as good a win as killing you (but not quite).

Bring a similar sized force and I'll be laughing all the way to my ships to shoot you. Bring a blob and I'll be doing my best to deny you everything I can.




I think most of the allies of wh will step down for a fight and stick to their promises if its not their plan to evict the corp /alliance from the controlled system...



Ashimats Blog http://rnat-postmortem.blogspot.se/2012/09/wormhole-defense-slightly-different.html wrote:


Negotiations
If coming under attack, speak up! You need all the information you can get on why this is happening, and a good way to get that is to talk with the attackers directly.

And you never know, the situation might be solvable by other means than you losing a lot of ships, and the attackers wasting a few days guarding WHs.

Remember that the longer it goes, the more time and effort have been put into the sige by the attackers and the harder it gets for them to withdraw. If you want to negotiate something, do that before they have reinforced your POSes, and absolutely before they spent any time waiting on a POS coming out of REO. That's the most boring part of a siege.

If possible, give them what they want! If you think you will not have any chance of (or will to) defending and they say they only came for a fight, give them one! What's the big deal? You not rather lose a few ships than all the time you invested into the POS?

Be creative! If they are 30 man strong and you got 5 guys online, offer to resolve matters "like men" with a 5 vs 5 at some planet. You show that you trust them to honour it, and they might get the fight they where looking for. Of course they might use that as a chance to pod you all out of the system, you need to make a assessment of who you are dealing with. However, if they are 30 man strong, chances are they are committed to see the POS gone. It might already have escalated beyond point of no return. But keep in mind that a lot of w-space alliances have a special kind of code they live by. Most will honour deals.

If they are after the system, consider offering to sell it cheap to them instead. If you have resources in the form of capitals that can't be moved out, use them to negotiate the price of the system. If you can't defend, you obviously stand to lose everything, but what you are negotiating is what they can gain.


Cipreh
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2012-12-04 10:14:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipreh
Svodola Darkfury wrote:



TLDR; There's been a big change on the forums lately for people wanting their PVP spoon-fed to them. Buck up and get out there and do the hunting like the rest of us. There will be days where you can't catch anybody, and there will be days where you have to bash a tower to get a fight. And there will be better days where you catch an Orca dropping a tower; or a C4 fleet that's not being careful enough. That's EVE PVP. If you're not used to it by now join Red Vs. Blue. That's instant action. This is real pvp.

Svodola Darkfury.



This!

I do agree that people self destructing inside force fields is frustrating, particularly for an invading force who's spent the time setting up and effort pulling off the often daunting logistics of such an operation, only to see the opposing side give up and self destruct without a fight. People are risk adverse, particularly if they aren't "PvP" players, no amount of patching or new mechanics will be able to change that.

Even if you disallow self-destructing in a POS, you will still see people figuring out ways to deny us fights and assets.

To really improve the quality of pvp in w-space, we need a new conflict driver.

My suggestion has been to reduce the number of unoccupied w-space systems for certain classes (class 5 specifically), which I feel will drive conflict by bringing people into contact with each other more often, and forcing people to fight over access to the newly limited resources.

Not only does it lessen the number of empty holes, it will help to drive the price of w-space gases and loot higher due to reduction of available resources from all the empty systems. If there aren't tons of empty systems, you will see less "farming" corps setting up, because the ability to defend ones operations would become a near necessity.

Another option would be to increase the number of connections to and from certain classes, perhaps allowing more systems to have dual statics, again, if CCP makes it so people run into each other more often, the explosions will inevitably happen.

It's human nature.

Blog: http://lostwithoutlocal.blogspot.com Twitter: @Cipreh I am also available on Skype, details available upon request. Feel free to contact me via any of the above methods,or in-game.
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