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CSM7 Dec Summit Topic - Voting system changes

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Orisa Medeem
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2012-12-02 23:25:20 UTC
Two step wrote:
Aryth wrote:
As has been said many times before, and in other threads by myself. Voter participation is the issue. CCP needs to take major steps to better communicate the CSM elections, as well as make it easier to research than "read persons thread".

Organized player groups can tip the election because they are organized. So the only way you are going to see the system work properly is to lower the bar substantially for the average EVE player to participate.


Do you have any specific suggestions? Automatic EVE mail to all players? A better voting page with more descriptive text per candidate?


I do. Increase the visibility and accessibility in a place where active players are guaranteed not to miss it.

The Eve homepage is not the place that accomplishes this. Nor is the launcher, the login screen, nor the character selection screen. My natural tendency is to skip the later three as fast as possible and I believe I'm not alone on this.

Making it mandatory on the login screen have a few problems as well, so my suggestion is to include an icon in the neocom that blinks every time the client is started (like completing skills do). It redirects to the voting page and is removed from the neocom once that account casts the vote.

If CCP is willing to devote some development effort changing the election process, then we might as well make the most of it and spend it where the biggest problem is. Then we observe how it goes and re-evaluate if anything else is needed.

:sand:  over  :awesome:
Midnight Pheonix
The Corpening
#42 - 2012-12-03 02:32:52 UTC
Orisa Medeem wrote:
Two step wrote:
Aryth wrote:
As has been said many times before, and in other threads by myself. Voter participation is the issue. CCP needs to take major steps to better communicate the CSM elections, as well as make it easier to research than "read persons thread".

Organized player groups can tip the election because they are organized. So the only way you are going to see the system work properly is to lower the bar substantially for the average EVE player to participate.


Do you have any specific suggestions? Automatic EVE mail to all players? A better voting page with more descriptive text per candidate?


I do. Increase the visibility and accessibility in a place where active players are guaranteed not to miss it.

The Eve homepage is not the place that accomplishes this. Nor is the launcher, the login screen, nor the character selection screen. My natural tendency is to skip the later three as fast as possible and I believe I'm not alone on this.

Making it mandatory on the login screen have a few problems as well, so my suggestion is to include an icon in the neocom that blinks every time the client is started (like completing skills do). It redirects to the voting page and is removed from the neocom once that account casts the vote.

If CCP is willing to devote some development effort changing the election process, then we might as well make the most of it and spend it where the biggest problem is. Then we observe how it goes and re-evaluate if anything else is needed.


I like this, I hate it when things are constantly flashing on my neocom, to the point that I'll click it to stop the flashing.

As for the people talking about proper representation, it's difficult to gage the demographics of the player base. Many people who live in 0.0/WH/Losec have and run multiple alts that live in highsec artificially inflating the population of those regions. I live in losec and may have two accounts dedicated to industrial and market income sources. In the end I'm going to vote for whats most important to me, improving losec. Consequently my alts (who outnumber my 1 losec pvp toon 2 to 1) will vote for the candidate that my main does. I find that this is the case for many people who play with more than 1 account.
Serpentine Logic
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2012-12-03 04:55:35 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Serpentine Logic wrote:
Do you have a link to further explanations of your points?


links


Cool. I agree that a vanilla STV scheme, with or without tickets would be fairer than disanfranchising those who 'overvote' for a popular candidate.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#44 - 2012-12-03 14:41:12 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Two step wrote:
Aryth wrote:
As has been said many times before, and in other threads by myself. Voter participation is the issue. CCP needs to take major steps to better communicate the CSM elections, as well as make it easier to research than "read persons thread".

Organized player groups can tip the election because they are organized. So the only way you are going to see the system work properly is to lower the bar substantially for the average EVE player to participate.


Do you have any specific suggestions? Automatic EVE mail to all players? A better voting page with more descriptive text per candidate?


In-game popup with working hyperlinks would be a good start. Something that doesn't grab focus though. Perhaps code that autoaunches ingame browser and goes to the voting form.

Rewards for voting, something tiny but just enough incentive to get them to vote. Quafe like.


There was some discussion of randomly handing out a PLEX for every 5K votes or something to a random voter. I liked that idea, not sure why it didn't happen. Perhaps it is time for the CCP art department to make an "Iteron IV 'I voted' edition" or something similar...

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-12-03 15:08:56 UTC
Two step wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Two step wrote:
Aryth wrote:
As has been said many times before, and in other threads by myself. Voter participation is the issue. CCP needs to take major steps to better communicate the CSM elections, as well as make it easier to research than "read persons thread".

Organized player groups can tip the election because they are organized. So the only way you are going to see the system work properly is to lower the bar substantially for the average EVE player to participate.


Do you have any specific suggestions? Automatic EVE mail to all players? A better voting page with more descriptive text per candidate?


In-game popup with working hyperlinks would be a good start. Something that doesn't grab focus though. Perhaps code that autoaunches ingame browser and goes to the voting form.

Rewards for voting, something tiny but just enough incentive to get them to vote. Quafe like.


There was some discussion of randomly handing out a PLEX for every 5K votes or something to a random voter. I liked that idea, not sure why it didn't happen. Perhaps it is time for the CCP art department to make an "Iteron IV 'I voted' edition" or something similar...


A Sec Status tag give away might be interesting, something to "prime" the system when it launches. Gives players a nice little ISK bump when most sell it off.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-12-03 15:11:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Do we really need to encourage the 'I don't know or care who any of these people are but give me my free gift' vote though?

Surely the goal here should be to turn more of the Eve playerbase into the sort of informed and engaged citizen who wants to vote for a particular candidate, not just more votes cast. Will any of these approaches achieve that, or will we just see a wave of low-information voters clicking the first name they see on the list so they can claim their Democracy Shuttle or whatever the reward happens to be?

My gut feeling on this is that the players who don't vote are the same players who don't really pay attention to dev blogs or forums or any of the information sources they'd need to choose a candidate from, who don't really have any opinion on anything the CSM might do.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
None ofthe Above
#47 - 2012-12-03 15:11:42 UTC
Two step wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Two step wrote:
Aryth wrote:
As has been said many times before, and in other threads by myself. Voter participation is the issue. CCP needs to take major steps to better communicate the CSM elections, as well as make it easier to research than "read persons thread".

Organized player groups can tip the election because they are organized. So the only way you are going to see the system work properly is to lower the bar substantially for the average EVE player to participate.


Do you have any specific suggestions? Automatic EVE mail to all players? A better voting page with more descriptive text per candidate?


In-game popup with working hyperlinks would be a good start. Something that doesn't grab focus though. Perhaps code that autoaunches ingame browser and goes to the voting form.

Rewards for voting, something tiny but just enough incentive to get them to vote. Quafe like.


There was some discussion of randomly handing out a PLEX for every 5K votes or something to a random voter. I liked that idea, not sure why it didn't happen. Perhaps it is time for the CCP art department to make an "Iteron IV 'I voted' edition" or something similar...


I was thinking an "I Voted for CSM 8" (or updated for later elections) T-Shirt

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2012-12-03 15:29:31 UTC
I think a carrot AND stick technique might be the best of both worlds. Random drop for an 'I Voted' Prize, ranging from a few quafes up to a plex. That is the carrot. Flashy icon reminding folks to vote . . . stick

As to those who feel that the reponse to this will be a wave of "Dammit, just vote for the first name ya see' Fine. They will be come the background noise to the election. IF it is random then it will not change the results either way. BUT if even 10% of those we convince to step up to the voting booth actually DO read and DO think then we have better representation and a better election, over all.

I am willing to put up with random 'whatever' votes in exchange for a few more thinking voters.

Oh, and for the record. I did campaign that Missions need to be more dynamic and less predictable to the point that you can follow a recipe and knock them off one after another. Multiple times.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#49 - 2012-12-03 15:33:09 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
My gut feeling on this is that the players who don't vote are the same players who don't really pay attention to dev blogs or forums or any of the information sources they'd need to choose a candidate from, who don't really have any opinion on anything the CSM might do.


Same here.

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-12-03 15:38:56 UTC
Seleene wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
My gut feeling on this is that the players who don't vote are the same players who don't really pay attention to dev blogs or forums or any of the information sources they'd need to choose a candidate from, who don't really have any opinion on anything the CSM might do.


Same here.

Which rather begs the question of why this topic is even taking up precious Summit time.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2012-12-03 15:44:35 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Seleene wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
My gut feeling on this is that the players who don't vote are the same players who don't really pay attention to dev blogs or forums or any of the information sources they'd need to choose a candidate from, who don't really have any opinion on anything the CSM might do.


Same here.

Which rather begs the question of why this topic is even taking up precious Summit time.


I would mostly agree, but at the very least, CCP should exhaust all the options to attract those player eyeballs.

What ever the system is, it needs to be ingame, automatic, and easily understandable. The reward to incentivze is probably required. CCP already has the ingame browser. Already has ingame popups (maybe it is only triggered if you haven't voted) and does it once per login.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#52 - 2012-12-03 15:47:42 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Seleene wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
My gut feeling on this is that the players who don't vote are the same players who don't really pay attention to dev blogs or forums or any of the information sources they'd need to choose a candidate from, who don't really have any opinion on anything the CSM might do.


Same here.

Which rather begs the question of why this topic is even taking up precious Summit time.


I'd assume that CCP Xhagen wants to come up with some sort of final plan or at least a half ass road map that we can pass onward and upward to other parts of CCP in the hopes of getting people more interested / invested in the process. Of course, nothing breeds interest like massive success / failure or a good scandal, so maybe we can arrange for that as well. Smile

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#53 - 2012-12-03 16:39:29 UTC
Seleene wrote:
Of course, nothing breeds interest like massive success / failure or a good scandal, so maybe we can arrange for that as well. Smile


Where's DNSBlack and his Jägerbombs when you need them

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2012-12-03 17:32:19 UTC
I just worry we're losing sight of the important part here - the point of the elections is to get the best-suited candidates in to CSM positions where they can give CCP advice and feedback and try to stop them doing anything too dumb. I'm not sure that adding a landslide of 'I just clicked this link for my free ship, what's a CSM anyway?' votes for whichever candidate happens to pop up first on their list is really going to help that cause.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2012-12-04 05:21:07 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
I. I'm not sure that adding a landslide of 'I just clicked this link for my free ship, what's a CSM anyway?' votes for whichever candidate happens to pop up first on their list is really going to help that cause.



As I said, assuming that the 'Where my freebies" votes are scattered then the likelyhood of them actually having an influence directly on the overall results is minimal. Just background noise. But if that sort of incentive creates an interested percentage of voters who actually DO read and DO get involved then the background noise is more than worth it.

Question is . . . would these new voters follow current lines or would they now vote platforms seldom supported in the recent elections?

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Opaque Intent
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#56 - 2012-12-06 02:33:25 UTC
How many people are motivated to vote is completely orthogonal to the actual issue, which is how the ballot works and how the votes are counted.

Let's keep on topic guise.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2012-12-06 03:26:53 UTC
Opaque Intent wrote:
How many people are motivated to vote is completely orthogonal to the actual issue, which is how the ballot works and how the votes are counted.

Let's keep on topic guise.


See, that's the problem with this topic. Nobody can even agree what the actual issue IS, i.e. why does the system need to be changed, what are the failings of it, and how would any new system address them. That's the important part of any voting discussion, and starting the discussion at "what new system will we use" skips that step entirely. It's why pretty much every topic on the subject turns to **** so quickly - I'm honestly extremely disappointed that this is even a Summit topic, especially given the CSM's initial attempt at this topic started with a system that set out to deliberately disenfranchise a single large voting bloc.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Frying Doom
#58 - 2012-12-06 07:03:19 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Opaque Intent wrote:
How many people are motivated to vote is completely orthogonal to the actual issue, which is how the ballot works and how the votes are counted.

Let's keep on topic guise.


See, that's the problem with this topic. Nobody can even agree what the actual issue IS, i.e. why does the system need to be changed, what are the failings of it, and how would any new system address them. That's the important part of any voting discussion, and starting the discussion at "what new system will we use" skips that step entirely. It's why pretty much every topic on the subject turns to **** so quickly - I'm honestly extremely disappointed that this is even a Summit topic, especially given the CSM's initial attempt at this topic started with a system that set out to deliberately disenfranchise a single large voting bloc.

Like it or not more people need to be educated to vote as well as possibly rewarded.

So the CSM does not just stay a minority lobby group but becomes a representative body of the whole of EvE.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-12-06 07:46:09 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Like it or not more people need to be educated to vote as well as possibly rewarded.

So the CSM does not just stay a minority lobby group but becomes a representative body of the whole of EvE.

Which 'minority' is the current CSM, which includes members from highsec, lowsec, 0.0 and wormspace, an unrepresentative 'lobby group' for, exactly?

If you want to complain that the voting system is skewed towards one group or another, CSM7 is the worst possible example you could use.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2012-12-06 07:54:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
Frying Doom wrote:
Like it or not more people need to be educated to vote as well as possibly rewarded.

So the CSM does not just stay a minority lobby group but becomes a representative body of the whole of EvE.


I'm going to ignore the minority group catchphrase.

This is exactly what I mean, Frying Doom - you're advocating player education. That is a Good Thing, but it's not a change in the voting system. The fact that you go there first (and generally have in past threads) is essentially agreeing with me; you're saying that there's bigger things to discuss before we start tinkering with a voting system. That Opaque Intent post was telling us that talking about such things was "off topic", and that's what I took issue with.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["