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The Gallente Problem II

Author
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#101 - 2012-11-29 15:26:50 UTC
guilty as charged

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#102 - 2012-11-29 16:13:25 UTC
I think you have fun and masochism confused there, pilot.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#103 - 2012-11-29 22:30:21 UTC
Stitcher wrote:

5: Refusing a challenge does not render my statements false.

You made a ridiculous statement. I asked you to prove it. You denied.
Now, why would I take your words seriously anymore?

Stitcher wrote:

A contest of physical strength does nothing to prove either of us correct on this subject.

Wrong. It can remove opponents from the equation.

Stitcher wrote:

I read it whenever I feel I need reminding exactly how dangerous Amarr really is. Because they don't need to send those big glitzy golden monuments to preposterously wasteful hubris into our space in order to conquer us. They feel perfectly capable of conquering us with ideas, propaganda and diplomacy.

I think you are confusing enemies with allies, gallentes with amarrians... haven't you dropped on head lately? clone malfunction maybe? gallentean braineating bugs? or bad Ishukone mind-dissolving foods?

Stitcher wrote:

Pax Amarria is a weapon, pilot Kim, and a damned subtle and effective one.

Probably I could do you with a book, but, actually, I prefer handguns, they are much more delicate and leave small elegant holes. Really, books are better be used for reading. When you use them as a weapon, they wear out way too fast.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#104 - 2012-11-29 23:12:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Diana Kim wrote:
... small elegant holes ...


Small? Elegant? When was the last time you actually shot somebody in person?

... have you ever, or are you using rodent hunting ammunition?

EDIT - I'm just going to answer my own question and assume you've only ever used small caliber handguns.

EDIT EDIT - Oh, and your tough girl 'look at me I can shoot people' isn't fooling anyone. The ability to kill somebody is not unique or special to you around here.

Katrina Oniseki

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#105 - 2012-11-30 13:47:17 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
... small elegant holes ...


Small? Elegant? When was the last time you actually shot somebody in person?

... have you ever, or are you using rodent hunting ammunition?

EDIT - I'm just going to answer my own question and assume you've only ever used small caliber handguns.

EDIT EDIT - Oh, and your tough girl 'look at me I can shoot people' isn't fooling anyone. The ability to kill somebody is not unique or special to you around here.

For Maker's sake! What do you consider small and elegant? Needle-sized holes? Should you maybe return home and do some embroidering. It is small in comparison, well, considering size of bruises you will leave after killing with a book, the single shot made right to the heart is small, even if you can put your whole finger inside, or even two... three maybe...
Or you prefer some explosive ammo, to blow up everything of your enemy in front of you? That wouldn't be very, you know,
hygienical.
Or maybe you like book-sized holes, say, with standard 75mm caliber, it would be fun to look at how you will pull that gun to kill someone in person!

Besides, returning to the topic. I would prefer Roden-hunting ammunition to rodent-hunting one Big smile

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Anslo
Scope Works
#106 - 2012-11-30 13:50:17 UTC
Divinity's Edge Diana, would you just shut up already? We get it, you don't like Gallente. Go try killing some of us instead of pumping IGS with this constant crap. Gods dammit...

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#107 - 2012-11-30 14:48:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Diana Kim wrote:
You made a ridiculous statement. I asked you to prove it. You denied.


On the contrary I demonstrated the reasoning behind my patently non-ridiculous statement several times, including extending your own statements to their logical conclusion. You appear to be ridiculing me rather than addressing my arguments, which I take as being a sign that you can't think of a good rebuttal. Possibly because there is no good rebuttal because I happen to be correct.

What I refused was the pointless exercise in turning this discussion into some farce of of "duel".

Quote:
Wrong. It can remove opponents from the equation.


Removing opponents from the argument, and demonstrating that their argument was wrong, are not the same thing. If you cut the tongue out of a man's mouth, you aren't proving him wrong; you're just demonstrating that you fear what he has to say.

Quote:
I think you are confusing enemies with allies, gallentes with amarrians... haven't you dropped on head lately? clone malfunction maybe? gallentean braineating bugs? or bad Ishukone mind-dissolving foods?


Perspective. The understanding that just because somebody is our ally now does not mean that they are our ally in the long term, and the understanding that just because somebody is our enemy now does not mean that they would not in fact make the best allies for us in the long term.

Alliances should be subject to change if the terms of them are unfavourable. It's as clear as an incoming missile bombardment that the Amarr's definition of "alliance" means "saving them for last". They've got people like you wrapped up in the idea that there's a true bond of friendship between the State and the Empire, whereas what they've instead done is tricked us into not opposing them so that they can turn on us when everybody else is gone and there's nobody left to stand with us.

Quote:
Probably I could do you with a book, but, actually, I prefer handguns, they are much more delicate and leave small elegant holes. Really, books are better be used for reading. When you use them as a weapon, they wear out way too fast.


Some weapons kill individuals, some kill populations, some weapons are aimed at cultures and philosophies. Pax Amarria is the third kind.

And, incidentally, if you're aiming to kill a person with "delicacy" and "elegance", then you're not treating the objective with the respect it demands. On those occasions in my life where I have killed, I have done so the Caldari way - efficiently. That means using the right tool for the situation. If the target in question is the ideology of entire civilisation, it turns out that one of the most efficient weapons to use is a book.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2012-11-30 17:09:00 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
That means using the right tool for the situation. If the target in question is the ideology of entire civilisation, it turns out that one of the most efficient weapons to use is a book.


I think the words of the Idama Súrnyá are somewhat relevant in this instance -

"Men have bones and flesh. Bones shatter and flesh tears, and the man becomes a corpse.
Castle shave stones and wood. Stones crumble and wood splinters, and the castle becomes a ruin.
But how would a man kill an idea? How could a castle trap an idea?
Ideas have no bones to be shattered nor stones to be crumbled.
Ideas have no flesh to be torn or wood to be splintered.
Have not the legends of great men lived long after their flesh and bone became corpses?
Have not the memories of great castles lived long after their wood and stone fell to ruin?
Would that I could become an idea, and fear death no longer."

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#109 - 2012-11-30 17:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
A nice sentiment, but my rebuttal:

ideas have thoughts and archives. Thoughts are forgotten and archives corrupt, and the idea fades from memory.

Memes are an ecosystem unto themselves, and just like physical ecologies, there is competition, mutation and extinction.

In fact, once an idea is dead, not even ruins and corpses remain to attest to the fact that it ever existed. Ideas can die a more total death than men and castles. How can we count the dead ideas of the past when, by the very nature of what they are, once they are dead nobody remembers that they ever were?

Just ask the Minmatar. Their culture from before the Day of Darkness is gone, so totally that they don't even have more than the vaguest idea of how much they've really lost. There aren't even fossils left to inspire informed speculation - once an idea is dead, it can never again be resurrected.

You and I, on the other hand, are living proof that men can come back from the dead, and it's a somewhat easier task to restore a castle than it was to have built it in the first place. After all, you've got an awful lot of stone about the place that can be recycled.

All of which is why it's so important to discuss and argue and debate: We want the meritorious ideas to survive and become known, and the detrimental ones to be defeated and to sink into obscurity. If ideas genuinely were indestructible, they wouldn't need defending.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Bendonni Narri
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#110 - 2012-12-01 01:21:34 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
A nice sentiment, but my rebuttal:

ideas have thoughts and archives. Thoughts are forgotten and archives corrupt, and the idea fades from memory.

Memes are an ecosystem unto themselves, and just like physical ecologies, there is competition, mutation and extinction.

In fact, once an idea is dead, not even ruins and corpses remain to attest to the fact that it ever existed. Ideas can die a more total death than men and castles. How can we count the dead ideas of the past when, by the very nature of what they are, once they are dead nobody remembers that they ever were?

Just ask the Minmatar. Their culture from before the Day of Darkness is gone, so totally that they don't even have more than the vaguest idea of how much they've really lost. There aren't even fossils left to inspire informed speculation - once an idea is dead, it can never again be resurrected.

You and I, on the other hand, are living proof that men can come back from the dead, and it's a somewhat easier task to restore a castle than it was to have built it in the first place. After all, you've got an awful lot of stone about the place that can be recycled.

All of which is why it's so important to discuss and argue and debate: We want the meritorious ideas to survive and become known, and the detrimental ones to be defeated and to sink into obscurity. If ideas genuinely were indestructible, they wouldn't need defending.


Stitcher, just stop it already. Trying to reason with Kim is like trying to teach Quantum physics to a Fedo.

Witty pop culture reference goes here 

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#111 - 2012-12-01 12:47:07 UTC
Stitcher wrote:

If you cut the tongue out of a man's mouth, you aren't proving him wrong; you're just demonstrating that you fear what he has to say.

Why would I should be afraid of someone speaking something? This is a bit, you know, not serious.
It is THOSE, WHO SPEAK must be afraid of what they do speak. And what I will demonstrate, that he should have feared it before, and that others must. But it is a bit deviation. I think I'll write a bit about responsibility for what you say elsewhere, so we could continue discussion there. (just want to point here, that this is quite crucial topic and requires separate discussion)


Stitcher wrote:

Perspective. The understanding that just because somebody is our ally now does not mean that they are our ally in the long term, and the understanding that just because somebody is our enemy now does not mean that they would not in fact make the best allies for us in the long term.

Alliances should be subject to change if the terms of them are unfavourable. It's as clear as an incoming missile bombardment that the Amarr's definition of "alliance" means "saving them for last". They've got people like you wrapped up in the idea that there's a true bond of friendship between the State and the Empire, whereas what they've instead done is tricked us into not opposing them so that they can turn on us when everybody else is gone and there's nobody left to stand with us.

Are you one of those, who want to fight against everything? You know, I see at things simplier: destroy threats and enjoy peace while it lasts. While Amarr hold to what they say (and I believe in their Nobility and Honor), there is no need to fight them.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Vikarion
Doomheim
#112 - 2012-12-01 15:34:33 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
The fact that I have Civire genes is completely irrelevant to the good functioning of my body. They are, effectively, cosmetic.


Not if you want to drink Hak'len, they aren't.
Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#113 - 2012-12-01 17:23:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Katherine Devonshire
Stitcher wrote:
I read it whenever I feel I need reminding exactly how dangerous Amarr really is. Because they don't need to send those big glitzy golden monuments to preposterously wasteful hubris into our space in order to conquer us. They feel perfectly capable of conquering us with ideas, propaganda and diplomacy.



And vice versa. I shall assume that one as well-read as yourself is familiar with the Hegelian dialectic?

The Caldari have invigorated the Amarrian economy like nothing before it or since. After all, why do you think a noble family would embark to form their own corporation in the first place? We could have just kept sitting around sipping wine and admiring our gardens all day, but instead we go out and seek to do things. You Caldari have freed us from our own stagnation & showed us that merit is just as, if not more, important than noble titles.

The difference is that we do not feel threatened by this invasion of Caldari culture fusing into our own. Well, some reactionary elements might, but those exist in every culture. Most of us welcome & embrace these changes. It is the spark of renewal that we so desperately needed. The Scriptures are an ongoing process - I wonder what the Caldari will contribute to our great Writings someday? I look forward to a future when men & women of the Faith are in charge of powerful, dynamic corporations within both of our great states.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#114 - 2012-12-01 18:39:40 UTC
Bendonni Narri wrote:
Stitcher, just stop it already. Trying to reason with Kim is like trying to teach Quantum physics to a Fedo.


The post you quoted was in fact in response to Andreus' comment. It wasn't addressed at Kim at all.


Diana Kim wrote:
While Amarr hold to what they say (and I believe in their Nobility and Honor), there is no need to fight them.


And I have empirical evidence that their "Nobility and Honour" end at the border. The Amarr think they are answerable to their god's law, not to the treaties and laws of mere mortals and empyreans. I've blown up Amarr Navy assets that were conducting slavery operations well outside of Amarr space, in the Federation and Republic.

Trusting the Amarr is like being nice to the shark in the hopes that it'll eat you last.

Lady Devonshire:

There at least you have given me something to think about. However, I consider your entire religion to be a barbaric and oppressive myth. Given that Amarr the religion is the foundation for, and in many cases is indistinguishable from Amarr the Empire, I think you can appreciate what a dim view I take of the idea that Caldari thinkers might one day contribute to its writings. I take a dim view of the idea that anybody should contribute further to the scriptures.

They belong in the archives, as examples of a powerful and inspirational but ultimately fatally flawed philosophy that has been central to the growth of New Eden as it is today, but their merit is purely historical. I find precious little in the Amarr faith that I would consider to be good and worthy of keeping.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#115 - 2012-12-01 19:34:03 UTC
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
I read it whenever I feel I need reminding exactly how dangerous Amarr really is. Because they don't need to send those big glitzy golden monuments to preposterously wasteful hubris into our space in order to conquer us. They feel perfectly capable of conquering us with ideas, propaganda and diplomacy.



And vice versa. I shall assume that one as well-read as yourself is familiar with the Hegelian dialectic?

The Caldari have invigorated the Amarrian economy like nothing before it or since. After all, why do you think a noble family would embark to form their own corporation in the first place? We could have just kept sitting around sipping wine and admiring our gardens all day, but instead we go out and seek to do things. You Caldari have freed us from our own stagnation & showed us that merit is just as, if not more, important than noble titles.

The difference is that we do not feel threatened by this invasion of Caldari culture fusing into our own. Well, some reactionary elements might, but those exist in every culture. Most of us welcome & embrace these changes. It is the spark of renewal that we so desperately needed. The Scriptures are an ongoing process - I wonder what the Caldari will contribute to our great Writings someday? I look forward to a future when men & women of the Faith are in charge of powerful, dynamic corporations within both of our great states.

We are different, and different completely, like a day and night, like a shadow and light, like life and death, like winter and summer. But there is no death without life, and there is no shadow without light. While we hold to our ideas, and are willing to teach each other and learn from each other, but not advancing our thoughts with a sword, we can coexist like day and night, like winter and summer, because what makes us different gives us desire to develop ourselves, gives us goals and ideals. And there is a harmony in differences, like between Deteis and Civire, like between Saisio and Caldari Prime and like between Practicals and Patriots.

Both our ideas are yet not ideal. Your scriptures are develop over time, as well as our doctrines. We both draw wisdoms from them and are ready to protect them with our lives. We seek answers and our place in this Universe, and our approaches, that are so different, are complementary to each other, like two DNA molecules forming double helix.

Unfortunately, there are also gallentes... these one, who can slit your throat just because some of your peoples (not even you, not even majority of you) use slavery. Those gallentes, that value only their empty freedoms, that sold their souls to void and went paths of self-righteousness, libertanism, egoism and hedonism. They can bring nothing, but destruction and sorrow. Their solely existence taunts our harmony!

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#116 - 2012-12-03 08:12:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Katran Luftschreck
Diana Kim wrote:
Unfortunately, there are also gallentes... these one, who can slit your throat just because some of your peoples (not even you, not even majority of you) use slavery. Those gallentes, that value only their empty freedoms, that sold their souls to void and went paths of self-righteousness, libertanism, egoism and hedonism. They can bring nothing, but destruction and sorrow. Their solely existence taunts our harmony!


My late uncle was born in the Gallente Federation, but it was the Minmatar who slit his throat. Though when I was a kid I remember traveling through there with him & my aunt and saw something really weird, at least to me. We had just arrived at this big space station when this skinny man in filthy clothes came up and asked us for money. I asked him who his holder was and he looked at me confused. Then I asked again who is holder was and why they weren't taking better care of him. Keep in mind I was still just a kid and I'd never seen an actual beggar before... because, well, we just don't have them.

As the Caldari say "everything is a trade" (general physics agrees) and I understand why the Gallente don't care for our slaves... but hey, at least someone does. No, they don't have all the same freedoms as citizens, but on the other hand they never get left out to die from sickness & hunger in some dingy alleyway, either. Homelessness isn't even a thing in the Empire. They can debate the morality of it all they want, but it's not the one-sided argument they make it out to be. It's a question of trade: One one end of the scale is personal freedom... but on the other is safety, security, and whatever other benefits a holder may offer them (obviously some are more generous than others - in both material needs & personal liberties).

That is the issue they should be intelligently debating instead of just thumping their chests and waving their sabres around all the time. Heck, even we have been debating it for some time. The Empress' decrees are a matter of public record. Even my own family has been petitioning the local government to replace "traditional" old fashioned slavery with simple indentured servitude contracts. I'm sure the Caldari can appreciate that as a step in the right direction.

After all, the more slaves we set free the more obvious it becomes that the Republic simply wants war for it's own sake and not because of some paper-thin notions of high morality. And when that becomes more clear to the Gallente maybe they'll want to reconsider their position as their allies. And when that happens they'll hopefully be more willing to make a real lasting peace with the Caldari.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#117 - 2012-12-04 06:29:00 UTC
Your act is getting old and tedious Luftschreck. You really need to get some new material. Roll

Please tell your puppet master Devonshire to feed you a fresh helping of self-hatred, half-truths, bigotry and outright lies so that you have some fresh diatribes, ok?

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#118 - 2012-12-04 09:49:19 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
After all, the more slaves we set free the more obvious it becomes that the Republic simply wants war for it's own sake and not because of some paper-thin notions of high morality. And when that becomes more clear to the Gallente maybe they'll want to reconsider their position as their allies. And when that happens they'll hopefully be more willing to make a real lasting peace with the Caldari.

I don't think it's the case. Their 'high morality' neither were, not are, not will be morality standards, but rather poor excuses for war. There will be no slavery? They will say there are still alive former slavers, who have to be killed. All slavers will be deported? They will say that the religion that born slavery have to be destroyed.

And with Republic staying loyal to wretched gallentean ideals, the Federation will use it as a meat shield and expendable strike force against the Empire and the State. While there are still peoples like Rella, the Republic is easily manipulated by gallenteans.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2012-12-04 09:52:51 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
I don't think it's the case. Their 'high morality' neither were, not are, not will be morality standards, but rather poor excuses for war.


"Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others originate those feelings."

Diana Kim wrote:
However, I'd shell some cities in Villore...

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Sakura Nihil
Faded Light
#120 - 2012-12-04 12:14:32 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
EDIT EDIT - Oh, and your tough girl 'look at me I can shoot people' isn't fooling anyone. The ability to kill somebody is not unique or special to you around here.

Score one for Kit-Kat.