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Freighters for mining ops anyone?
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Dave Stark
#61 - 2012-12-02 08:54:43 UTC
Ritsum wrote:
Some null corps should think about this. Bring in a high sec mining corp and get them to strip mine your systems while you get a certain % of the ores they get, they also get your protection and more ISK from the abundance of high end ores.

Passive income for Null corps/alliances as well as a increase in raw ores being dumped into hangers of the null corps.

Probably already tried and being done as I type this but still I don't understand why it would not make a good idea. Carebear high-sec miners still being protected by the null's and the null's getting more income and industry to fuel their wars. Win/Win right?

/Flame on


no because high sec mining ops will make more isk in high sec because as it stands high sec ores are worth almost as much as null sec ores, if you're then taking isk from the null sec mining op then it's going to be less lucrative than high sec, especially when every one warps to a pos every time a neut pops up in local, and the hassle of getting their mining op to 0.0 to begin with etc.

not to mention to keep the industry index up in 0.0 systems you have to intentionally mine ores worth 2m/jetcan rather than just consistently cherry picking the 8m/jetcan ores in order to flip the grav sites.

nice throught, but it wouldn't be worth any one's time.
Sarmea Moon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2012-12-02 11:56:04 UTC
Dave stark wrote:


again, losing bonuses for a cycle on a few miners is less of a loss than having one less exhumer pilot.
also if you're hauling in an orca there's less idle time because it's smaller and you're not having to manage jetcans which are a massive "come and canflip me" sign.

the simple fact is for freighter hauling to be more effective than orca hauling you're going to have to sacrifice an exhumer pilot and/or have a nightmare micromanaging containers in space that will just attract people who want to ruin your day.



Again, I don't think you've ever run a mining op. We aren't talking about picking either a freighter hauler or having your bonus orca constantly hauling. We're talking about the dedicated hauler being in a freighter or an orca or an itty. Haulers are picked as haulers during an op because they can't get in a miner, and usually get a lesser share of the op income.

Now- let's assume that all freighter pilots are also cross trained as miners. Remember the 14 hulks I mentioned? How much ore do you think they pull? That orca giving bonuses? They have a downtime of less than 5 minutes between orca loads to the station, meaning you are essentially mining without bonuses. You are also under the mistaken impression that dozens of cans will actually be left open and laying around the belt. A bonus orca doesn't use 3 command links, it uses 2 and a tractor because the 3rd link is useless. So whether I'm tractoring for an itty, a second orca, or a freighter isn't going to make any difference in the number of cans in the belt- IE precious few.

Now- let's see the scenario where you think this freighter pilot CAN mine. If they're in an itty, they're doing nothing but hauling non-stop, AND the bonus orca is also having to haul every 30 minutes or so because an itty can't keep up. No way they'd be helping mine. If they're hauling in a second orca- wow, those mining drones are totally going to be a help (not) while waiting on getting enough ore to haul (5 min downtime per run). Freighter? Run to belt, grab everything that's in the bonus orca plus whatever they've tractored every 30 minutes, in between they mine- that is the only scenario where cans are actually in the belt, and it's only because freighter pilot was mining.

The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse [lady of commercial virtue]. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.- James Nicoll
Dave Stark
#63 - 2012-12-02 12:16:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Sarmea Moon wrote:
You are also under the mistaken impression that dozens of cans will actually be left open and laying around the belt.

orca holds less than 200k, freighters hold something like 800k give or take. so, that 600k will be floating around in jetcans.
unless of course, you're scooping it straight from the orca, in which case you may have a ship that's smaller, faster, and carries the same amount of cargo as your booster orca... like, a second orca!

not to mention, you have plenty of time for your dedicated hauler to "catch up" as your operation switches belts since freighters carry more ore than there is in a single belt.

edit: quick napkin maths says orca hauling for 14 hulks fills every ~4.7 mins. so even 14 hulks can't supply more demand than an orca can fill.
so even a dedicated hauler would gain nothing from being in a freighter, other than flying a more expensive, slower ship that lacks the essential tractor beam capability that's going to be needed since putting 14 hulks in one belt is plain silly.

again, the freighter changes are nice. however mining ops really don't gain anything from it.
Sarmea Moon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2012-12-02 12:42:58 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Sarmea Moon wrote:
You are also under the mistaken impression that dozens of cans will actually be left open and laying around the belt.

orca holds less than 200k, freighters hold something like 800k give or take. so, that 600k will be floating around in jetcans.
unless of course, you're scooping it straight from the orca, in which case you may have a ship that's smaller, faster, and carries the same amount of cargo as your booster orca... like, a second orca!

not to mention, you have plenty of time for your dedicated hauler to "catch up" as your operation switches belts since freighters carry more ore than there is in a single belt.



I see. You leave your hauler docked up until you actually use them, and only haul when they can get a full load. We have our haulers in the belt until they have a full load to return, like nearly all real mining ops:P You haul whatever you can grab, then return- full or not. You don't leave cans in the belt, no matter what you are using as a hauler. So all ore gets pulled into the orca for holding while the freighter makes less than full runs.

Yes, we currently use a second orca as a dedicated hauler, and yes, my bonus giving orca has to pick up the slack. However, that second orca pilot actually can fly a mining ship. My hauler alt can fly an Itty V, or a freighter, but cannot fly an orca or a mining ship. Guess whose alt just became useful again? :D How many people have freighter alts vs orca alts? Orca pilots can automatically fly a real mining ship- it requires mining barge V among other skills. A freighter pilot- not many have any mining skills, they usually get trade or science skills- mine runs a POS.

The only real difference is that an orca can be faction/deadspace tanked for about the same price as a freighter (ie, orcas are running 700m, and obelisk is running 1.4 B) but honestly- if you are already fielding that kind of cash in a high sec mining op, why not splurge and go whole hog:)

The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse [lady of commercial virtue]. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.- James Nicoll
Dave Stark
#65 - 2012-12-02 12:51:41 UTC
Sarmea Moon wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Sarmea Moon wrote:
You are also under the mistaken impression that dozens of cans will actually be left open and laying around the belt.

orca holds less than 200k, freighters hold something like 800k give or take. so, that 600k will be floating around in jetcans.
unless of course, you're scooping it straight from the orca, in which case you may have a ship that's smaller, faster, and carries the same amount of cargo as your booster orca... like, a second orca!

not to mention, you have plenty of time for your dedicated hauler to "catch up" as your operation switches belts since freighters carry more ore than there is in a single belt.



I see. You leave your hauler docked up until you actually use them, and only haul when they can get a full load. We have our haulers in the belt until they have a full load to return, like nearly all real mining ops:P You haul whatever you can grab, then return- full or not. You don't leave cans in the belt, no matter what you are using as a hauler. So all ore gets pulled into the orca for holding while the freighter makes less than full runs.

Yes, we currently use a second orca as a dedicated hauler, and yes, my bonus giving orca has to pick up the slack. However, that second orca pilot actually can fly a mining ship. My hauler alt can fly an Itty V, or a freighter, but cannot fly an orca or a mining ship. Guess whose alt just became useful again? :D How many people have freighter alts vs orca alts? Orca pilots can automatically fly a real mining ship- it requires mining barge V among other skills. A freighter pilot- not many have any mining skills, they usually get trade or science skills- mine runs a POS.

The only real difference is that an orca can be faction/deadspace tanked for about the same price as a freighter (ie, orcas are running 700m, and obelisk is running 1.4 B) but honestly- if you are already fielding that kind of cash in a high sec mining op, why not splurge and go whole hog:)


doesn't matter what you do with your hauler. the fact is unless your hauler can't keep up with the miners it will either be A) idle, or B) under utilised. using a freighter will just increase situation A or B and you're giving up the ability to tractor cans, align, and warp faster for no benefit other than to make situation A or B worse. A is remedied by having the hauler also able to fly a mining ship and mine during "idle" time.

sure if your alt has a choice of an itty that can't keep up, or a freighter that will be under utilised then sure this change is great for you. however just because you've got an alt that isn't properly skilled for a job doesn't mean the change will have any meaningful change on operations that have properly skilled characters doing their intended jobs.

because you can t2 fit an orca and get over 200k ehp. also when there are 14 flimsily tanked hulks sitting in a belt, who cares about the orca? it'll be disco time.
Starrakatt
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#66 - 2012-12-02 13:03:48 UTC
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember you can't board a ship if it is locked by another ship?

If it is the case all this argument is pointless, Orca lock the Freighter, freighter pilot ejects and use the Hulk stored up in Orca.

Pilot ejects, store the Hulk and board the Freighter once its full for hauling.

/end of argument.

Ofc, I may remember wrongly.

Join Celtic Anarchy!

Sneaky bastard.
Sarmea Moon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2012-12-02 13:23:21 UTC
You were the one who said the hauler should be mining instead. If they are an orca pilot, that is true. If they are a freighter pilot, that's likely not true. Haulers in mining ops are usually people who haven't got the skills to mine. haulers are a different skillset, orcas use the same mining skillset.

You are the one saying this isn't much of a real change for mining ops. I'm simply pointing out that it isn't true.

As to tractoring- the bonus orca does that. Freighter warps to orca, grabs everything. Yes, longer to align, but not longer to warp- even before hitting it with a web. During that align time they are looting any stray tractored cans and filling up from the orca. Then ready for web for instawarp. A webbed orca isn't any faster. It has a longer warp time, but big deal, it's in the same system, so not a big difference.

As you point out- who would bother ganking an orca when they have hulks to play with? Same with a freighter- who would bother ganking it when they could have hulk for dinner? So warp/align etc is irrelevant.

PS your napkin math is off a bit, or I wouldn't need to warp my bonus giving orca every 40 minutes because our orca hauler can't keep up.

The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse [lady of commercial virtue]. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.- James Nicoll
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-12-02 13:32:23 UTC
Who has a need to haul nearly a freighter load of stuff on short notice?

Perhaps this change isn't really aimed at mining.
Dave Stark
#69 - 2012-12-02 13:36:45 UTC
Sarmea Moon wrote:
PS your napkin math is off a bit, or I wouldn't need to warp my bonus giving orca every 40 minutes because our orca hauler can't keep up.


it's not.

14 hulks pull in ~2.2m m3 of ore per hour.
that's ~83 jetcans per hour.
an orca can hold ~6.5 jetcans of ore
that's ~12 trips per hour.
that's ~5mins warp to and from the station, and scoop all the ore.

tell your orca hauler to focus on hauling rather than touching himself during idle periods, imo.
Sarmea Moon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2012-12-02 13:39:04 UTC
Malphilos wrote:
Who has a need to haul nearly a freighter load of stuff on short notice?

Perhaps this change isn't really aimed at mining.



And no one in EvE has ever used game mechanics in an unintended way:P Yes, it's a truly welcome part of POS fixes. This thread is about how it might be used in mining, and whether people will see freighters hauling in the belts. I brought it up in another thread, but so have several other people. This means it crossed a lot of minds at once, gankers, bumpers, and miners.

Some think of ore, some are thinking of ice. All in all, I'm certain it's going to be an increase in activity in the belts. I won't say what system I have on the office pool as the first system that will see a dead freighter in the belt, but I'll give ya a hint- it's in Caldari space, and the date is within 48 hours of retribution going live!! *shrug* I could be wrong, but by live the pot should be quite decent:D

The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse [lady of commercial virtue]. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.- James Nicoll
Sarmea Moon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2012-12-02 13:56:36 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Sarmea Moon wrote:
PS your napkin math is off a bit, or I wouldn't need to warp my bonus giving orca every 40 minutes because our orca hauler can't keep up.


it's not.

14 hulks pull in ~2.2m m3 of ore per hour.
that's ~83 jetcans per hour.
an orca can hold ~6.5 jetcans of ore
that's ~12 trips per hour.
that's ~5mins warp to and from the station, and scoop all the ore.

tell your orca hauler to focus on hauling rather than touching himself during idle periods, imo.


You're close on the hulk pull, but we're getting a higher average, about 86 per hour. Maybe you aren't using drones?

My orca holds 140k (~5 cans), not 170k. We don't use cargohold expanding rigs, or cargo expanders in the lows. They're a waste, since they only affect main cargo, and we have better mods for those slots.

The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse [lady of commercial virtue]. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.- James Nicoll
Souisa
Subhypersonics
#72 - 2012-12-02 16:33:11 UTC
"Blockade Runners are being updated to be immune to cargo scanners, and as such will always show up as empty on scans"

This should be a stand alone module, for fitting on any ships :)

o/
Dave Stark
#73 - 2012-12-02 17:08:09 UTC
Sarmea Moon wrote:
Maybe you aren't using drones?


correct, totally forgot about those.
Colonel Morgana
Velocity Vixens
#74 - 2012-12-03 09:05:04 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
there's simply not enough ore in a high sec belt to justify wasting a pilot sitting in a freighter with his knob in his hand.


I just saw a screenie of Chribba mining with multiple titans, I'm pretty sure that most multiboxers will have an account with a hauling alt going spare that can sit in on mining ops while another character is training.
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2012-12-03 21:51:29 UTC
A freighter in a mining op would be a luxury set up.

What's the rule? One Orca with a maxed pilot+implants + 2 hulks > three Hulks? I think this is what I heard. I freighter pilot just hanging out and drinking beer - yah - a luxury set up. A real op would put that freighter pilot into "something" that can suck down roidz. The Orca could snuggle up to a veldspar roid and deploy a flight of T2 mining drones too.

You could do it by having the hulks in a spherical constellation around the freighter, jet canning, with the freighter sucking it all up. It just doesn't really work like that because you can't design a max yield mining op and have a pliot with zero yield.

Sounds like a fun change though.
Dave Stark
#76 - 2012-12-03 21:53:16 UTC
Colonel Morgana wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
there's simply not enough ore in a high sec belt to justify wasting a pilot sitting in a freighter with his knob in his hand.


I just saw a screenie of Chribba mining with multiple titans, I'm pretty sure that most multiboxers will have an account with a hauling alt going spare that can sit in on mining ops while another character is training.


as i said in a previous post; it's great if you have a spare character sitting around that can now do a job it wasn't intended to do. however a set of characters that have been trained for the job their doing won't gain any benefit from this change.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#77 - 2012-12-03 22:22:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
Lets see: An Orca warps off and returns. During that time the bonuses are off. You lose maybe 5% to 10% of your yield (depending on if pilots have to stop mining completely because they ran out of roids within 15 km, and cannot mine the farther ones once the Orca leaves). So before it makes more isk to have freighter pilot rather than just cycling the orca and having an extra exhumer, you need 10 to 20 exhumers in the operation.

As your fleet grows, you want:
Pilot 1: Exhumer
Pilot 2: Exhumer
Pilot 3: Orca
Pilots 4 to 10: Exhumers
Pilot 11: Freighter.

I have seen ops with an orca, a bunch of exhumers, and a industrial pilot to offload the ocra, and the industrial pilot just could not keep up. With a freighter he could have.

Edit: There is also the case where you are mining in a system that has no stations. In that case using your boosting Orca as a Hauler means a rather long time with no Orca, and no Orca boosts. May well be better to have the freighter do the hauling so the Orca can stay in system boosting.

Edit 2: Fleet mines in one belt, jet canning. Orca tractors them in, but does not scoop. When the belt gets close to depletion one miner uses the Orca to switch to a shuttle, storing his exhumer. He flies the shuttle to where he has his freighter, returns with the freighter and scoops all the cans. As he flies back to station with the ore the fleet moves to the next belt. Now you got constant Orca boosts, and very little lost time due to picking up with a freighter.

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Vexed Nova
NovaTech Holdings
#78 - 2013-02-18 19:50:32 UTC
I have just recently returned to mining. I have been using a freighter as my in-belt storage/hauler for quite a few long sessions and the freighter is an invaluable asset, especially for larger mining ops. I did notice someone mentioned dropping of freight containers in the belt and then park the freighter and jump in when it is time to grab them. I haven't yet tried that, but it does seem interesting. We have an off grid boosting Orca at our POS, so we are still getting the bonuses (constant). Its working for us.

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Helgrind Wolf
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-02-19 00:52:41 UTC
Vexed Nova wrote:
I have just recently returned to mining. I have been using a freighter as my in-belt storage/hauler for quite a few long sessions and the freighter is an invaluable asset, especially for larger mining ops. I did notice someone mentioned dropping of freight containers in the belt and then park the freighter and jump in when it is time to grab them. I haven't yet tried that, but it does seem interesting. We have an off grid boosting Orca at our POS, so we are still getting the bonuses (constant). Its working for us.



^ that.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#80 - 2013-02-19 01:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Katran Luftschreck
Dave Stark wrote:
so you mean, like an orca but without the bonuses?


Like parked next to the Orca and putting an entire asteroid belt into it's cargo bay in one trip... while the Orca gives bonuses and keeps a handy fleet of counter-gank fighters in it's corp bay on standby.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0