Ships & Modules

So on Dec 4th, these are going to become viable I think. The only thing I'm a bit uncertain on is the choice of Rigs. It probably needs at least 1 Hydraulic thruster for range. At the moment I'm inclining towards 1x T1 Thruster, 2x T2 Rigor rigs.

What are you putting on your HAMgus?

I think the best combo is 1 rigor, 1 flare and 1 bay thruster as it covers everything ham's lack.

[Tengu, ham]

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner
Gistum C-Type Medium Shield Booster

[empty med slot] <---- hardener of choice
[empty med slot] <---- hardener of choice
[empty med slot] <---- hardener of choice
[empty med slot] <---- hardener of choice

Target Painter II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

This would be the core fit, you have enough mids to toy around with target painters or other stuff besides your tank. I think you should include at least one target painter to help apply damage to frigs, since it is the most annoying thing for the Tengu, maybe even a web. Rigs should be that way because the more range the better obviously and rigor/flare combo is better than 2 of one sort because of stacking penalties i'd guess.

I'm attracted by the potential of a 980DPS HAM boat that's no longer hobbled by rigors and precision implants not applying.

Eh.... a few issues:

Fury HMLs are being knocked down to 62% of original range. So ~68km range versus 110km range for HMLs.

Rage HAMs lose a bit of range (down to 93% of original range.) So the already short range on HAMs isn't improving.

Rage HAMs and HML Tengus (to a lesser extent) will have their explosion radius increased to the point that you *need* a Rigor rig to get back down to pre-Retribution levels. In other words, your Tengu is essentially "losing a rig slot". However, the HML Tengu can use Precision missiles to mitigate this problem. The HAM Tengu cannot.

Fury HMLs are getting a 5% damage nerf. Rage HAMs are getting a 5% damage buff.

However, if you need to travel 10km in a HAM Tengu to get into range, then
- Tengu w/ Fury HMLs has 784 * 95% = 730 DPS
- Tengu w/ Rage HAMs has 916 * 105% = 962 DPS.
Both travel at 661m/s with RF AB.

For a HAM Tengu to travel 10km at 661m/s to get into range requires 15 seconds. Meanwhile the HML Tengu is firing away. So that's:
730 * (t + 15) = 962t
730t + 10,950 = 962t
10,950 = 232t
t = 47 seconds

For every 15 seconds that the HAM Tengu is not firing while getting into range, it will take 47 seconds of continuous firing for the HAM Tengu to catch up to the DPS output of the HML Tengu.


tl;dr HAM Tengu's applied DPS will still suffer from limited range. HML Tengu should still be faster at missions, especially if blitzing.

Jokes on you I am going to create an intricate Can Maze based around a single point before taking a HAM Tengu in. When I hit the Orbit at the correct range the maze will bump me around the Battlefield eventually putting me in range of each ship.

I will not have Big Developers telling me which ships I have to and don't have to fly. I own a Retriever and stare at the ICE until it is mined as God intended.

CCP doesn't set the agenda my neurosis does.

Can dropping macros are no joke, kid.

Where did you see that?? Stop spreading misinformation and read the last devblog.

You're forgetting Javelin, bro. It now no longer slows your ship and gets much closer to the HML's maximum attainable range due to the nerf of the later. Since rigs, skills and implants affect it now, they'll be just as good against small targets as Precision heavies (actually a tiny bit better due to faster explosion velocity).

You are of course correct that there is a damage difference between HML and HAM due to HAM traveling more, but then when you need range and are willing to sacrifice dps, nothing's stopping you from swapping the launchers. I personally intend to use both, with focus on HAMs for most missions.

Eh...
* Javelins will have 48% of the range of T1 HMLs and do 125% of the DPS.
* Javelins will have the 97% of the range of Precision HMLs, and do 125% of the DPS.
* Javelins will do 67% of the damage of Rage HAMs which puts a bib ouchie on those monster DPS numbers for HAM Tengus.

Yes, Javelins are better than Precision, however, an HML boat can use all of its rig slots for Rigor rigs, whereas a HAM boat may want to use one or two missile speed/flight time rigs to help with the range when using T1/Rage ammo. So against small targets, I'm thinking that Javelin and Precision and T1 HML ammo may be a bit of a wash in practice (i.e. Precision still isn't worthwhile in PvE.)




Having flown missions in Minmatar space, even against Angels, range is pretty important. Especially when blitzing. I just can't jump on the HAM Tengu bandwagon until people start publishing mission completion times.

Personally, I think that if there's a bandwagon, there's a problem. As a missile lover and one that used CNR, Tengu, Drake and similar "cookie-cutter" ships for a long, long time, I firmly believe that there shouldn't be a "beat them all" ship or "beat them all" fit for any part of the game. We're getting closer to this with Retribution - previously, using HMLs on a Tengu was a no-brainer. Now, the answer isn't as clear-cut anymore and we may each tailor the build to our own playstyle or perhaps even use another ship (though we'll probably need BS and T3 rebalance before we might see that).

All I'm saying is, I like to have different options. Previously, HAMs weren't one, because HMLs were clearly superior, but now they are.