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[proposal] Ending the CSM

Author
The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2011-10-21 17:28:38 UTC
The timing on these threads is so transparent it makes me laugh.

For months, CSM6 has worked hard to bring home a whole pile of successes. Past CSMs have rarely had more than one or two items they can declare 'theirs'; CSM6 is the most effective body yet.

And, the truth is, most of the 'null' CSM folks that feed your conspiracy theories are relatively inactive. Trebor, Two Step and Meissa are incredibly active in CSM6, and they hail from no alliance - Wormholes, Hiseccers and Lowsec. And working with them, the active null reps have gotten a lot done.

But of course, that's not what your thread is about. Your thread is about miners being blown up in hisec, so you woke up and wrote a lot of uninformed words about "Goon Control" of the CSM while mourning your lost mining barge.

~hi~

Omega Tron
Edge Dancers
Pan-Intergalatic Business Community
#22 - 2011-10-21 17:45:56 UTC
Well here is my thoughs on CSM & CCP & EVE-

When I started playing EVE going on 4 years ago now the general warnings that were being handed out at the time were -
- EVE is a game that you need to be committed to for a very long time (read years) and will cost you money to play.
- EVE is a game that is mean, difficult to understand, and even more difficult to learn in the extreme most ways.

It seems to me that these two messages have been lost sight of here in the last year or so. These two reasons above are exactly why I play this game. There are some of the 5000+ that have now left that I really hope come back because they had the smart's, the patience, and the endurence that this game requires. My advice to the CSM and CCP is ignore this call for ending the CSM because it's the bad and wrong advice that got you sideways with the players that are really EVE. The renewed direction your speaking of will bring you back to what you need to be --- THE BEST, THE TOUGHTEST, THE MOST DIFFICULT TO PLAY, MMO in this world.

CCP's sand box is EVE Online.  The sand is owned by CCP.  We pay them a monthly fee to throw the sand at each other.  That is all that is here, so move along. Nothing more to be seen.

Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2011-10-21 17:57:59 UTC
Omega Tron wrote:
Well here is my thoughs on CSM & CCP & EVE-

When I started playing EVE going on 4 years ago now the general warnings that were being handed out at the time were -
- EVE is a game that you need to be committed to for a very long time (read years) and will cost you money to play.
- EVE is a game that is mean, difficult to understand, and even more difficult to learn in the extreme most ways.

It seems to me that these two messages have been lost sight of here in the last year or so. These two reasons above are exactly why I play this game. There are some of the 5000+ that have now left that I really hope come back because they had the smart's, the patience, and the endurence that this game requires. My advice to the CSM and CCP is ignore this call for ending the CSM because it's the bad and wrong advice that got you sideways with the players that are really EVE. The renewed direction your speaking of will bring you back to what you need to be --- THE BEST, THE TOUGHTEST, THE MOST DIFFICULT TO PLAY, MMO in this world.


Even I have my misgivings on the CSM...but ending them is the wrong answer.

They aren't perfect...and they are a little biased..if not more.

But they are not the problem.

And until people get it through their thick skulls...i fear this will continue...but I sure as heck won't allow smoe noob get it in his head he knows better...not until he gets ALOT more experince under his belt.

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Deucalion Ex Mortis
Doomheim
#24 - 2011-10-21 18:08:52 UTC
Excuse me Mr Mittani sir, can I have a minute of your time.

Your “successes” as you say, will help, if I may quote you again, “a small and insular group of players”.

If I am correct in assuming that 80% of all Eve players live in high sec and will never venture to 0.0 then 80% of the people playing Eve dont give a **** what you have accomplished. They will never see it. This is what the thread is about not stroking your new found love of ganking.

Thanks for your time
Your typical high sec execrable iskmonger.
Parsec Seti
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2011-10-21 19:26:59 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
The timing on these threads is so transparent it makes me laugh.

For months, CSM6 has worked hard to bring home a whole pile of successes. Past CSMs have rarely had more than one or two items they can declare 'theirs'; CSM6 is the most effective body yet.

And, the truth is, most of the 'null' CSM folks that feed your conspiracy theories are relatively inactive. Trebor, Two Step and Meissa are incredibly active in CSM6, and they hail from no alliance - Wormholes, Hiseccers and Lowsec. And working with them, the active null reps have gotten a lot done.

But of course, that's not what your thread is about. Your thread is about miners being blown up in hisec, so you woke up and wrote a lot of uninformed words about "Goon Control" of the CSM while mourning your lost mining barge.


You've missed the point of what I proposed. It's not about you, or "Goon Control." I would of course assume that yourself and the other members of the CSM would disagree with my position.

It's also not about the relative successes of CSM6 vs any other past, or future CSM group. This is about finding a better way of reaching out to all of the players in the Eve community - This doesn't appear to be happening currently.

A common argument is that people should vote if they want a say. That's a fine position in government, but terrible in business. The CSM was made to represent the Eve community and provide feedback to CCP on how the player-base feels about game elements. What I'm saying is that there is a better way to accomplish this goal.

"Welcome to you're doom!"

Goose99
#26 - 2011-10-21 19:30:13 UTC
By goons, for goons.Cool
Parsec Seti
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2011-10-21 19:40:10 UTC
Quote:



I didn't say the customer player base in EVE is stupid.

I said customers are stupid. In its literal form there is no relevance or relationship...its a general metaphorical term.


Your time IS relevant...youve played this game for a little over a month..maybe 2...and you think you know whats best for us?

Seriously....Get out.

Some of us have things to take care of and we don't have time to hand hold you.


EVE Online is a cold harsh game....and your so called war drum beating in the name of "Customer Service" is heavily biased...and poluted.

Do I like suicide ganknig? No.
But until someone can come up with an alternative method to nail someones @$$ to the wall in high security space with CONCORD Protection.... I suggest you take a hike.

That is one of many examples of your so called "Customer Service" mantra that would ruin this game.

The so called "majority" you see is not a majority...it is a mob of a small percentage of the population that thinks they know how this game should be when they are utterly outgunned...outnumbered...and over powered.

CCP does listen to customers...but only in terms you'll never understand in your current prespective.

Sure as hell not going to give a crap over 1 little customer....needs to be something in the terms of 500 to 1000 before they pay attention.

Until you've put a good solid 6 months to a year into this game....you have utterly no business making "game breaking" decisions for the rest of us.

And even then its suspect.

I NEVER suggest anything without weighing in all sides...including the "Dreaded piwat" side...its their game too after all.

That...is the real world of customer service. Customer service by defintiion doesn't mean give them what they want...it means give them quality service...and that includes giving them the hard meassage...like "your #### outa luck bub" with a smile and a grin they couldn't yell at or punch.

In short..get over yourself.


You need to calm down. You also need to learn to read better.

I'm not making any suggestions on how the game should be played. I'm making suggestions on how the feedback to CCP should be handled. Please take a moment to consider the differences.

You have said repeatedly that customers are stupid. From the point of view of CCP, we are customers. I have combined those two statements and concluded that you think Eve customers are stupid.

If you re-read what I'm suggesting, you'll see that I'm not at all trying to tell you or anyone else in Eve what is best for them. I'm proposing looking at a solution that incorporates player feedback from a larger portion of the Eve community. Customer service isn't about giving the customer what they want, but only a fool would think that a business wouldn't want to know what the customer wants, and make an informed decision based on customer feedback.

Of course you're welcome to discount my opinion using any reason you'd like, including Ad hominem attacks.

"Welcome to you're doom!"

Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2011-10-21 20:09:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Drake Draconis
Parsec Seti wrote:
You need to calm down. You also need to learn to read better.

I'm not making any suggestions on how the game should be played. I'm making suggestions on how the feedback to CCP should be handled. Please take a moment to consider the differences.

You have said repeatedly that customers are stupid. From the point of view of CCP, we are customers. I have combined those two statements and concluded that you think Eve customers are stupid.

If you re-read what I'm suggesting, you'll see that I'm not at all trying to tell you or anyone else in Eve what is best for them. I'm proposing looking at a solution that incorporates player feedback from a larger portion of the Eve community. Customer service isn't about giving the customer what they want, but only a fool would think that a business wouldn't want to know what the customer wants, and make an informed decision based on customer feedback.

Of course you're welcome to discount my opinion using any reason you'd like, including Ad hominem attacks.



Only a fool would listen to a noob make suggestions and expect to be heard when he has little to no time put in.

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Parsec Seti
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2011-10-21 20:21:30 UTC
Quote:
Only a fool would listen to a noob make suggestions and expect to be heard when he has little to no time put in.


You're wrong on this. The strength of an idea has little to do with how much time someone has put in. You sound like the poster-boy for entrenched thinking and the old boys club.

I would bet that CCP sees my money as just as green as yours. In fact, if you've been playing for years, and make enough isk in game to buy plex each month to fund your monthly fee, mine is greener.

A business doesn't care about the money you paid in the past - they're concerned about the money you're going to pay them in the future, which makes us equal in terms of voice.

Your opinion is appreciated.

"Welcome to you're doom!"

Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
The Revenant Order
#30 - 2011-10-21 20:21:58 UTC
Drake calling someone else a fool or noob.

Once again, the pot has called the kettle black.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||

Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2011-10-21 20:27:32 UTC
Jack Carrigan wrote:
Drake calling someone else a fool or noob.

Once again, the pot has called the kettle black.


Yes Jack we all know your so bitter and obsessed in smack talking me at every turn that your obviosuly butthurt.

Get over yourself.

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Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2011-10-21 20:40:00 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
The timing on these threads is so transparent it makes me laugh.

For months, CSM6 has worked hard to bring home a whole pile of successes. And failed. Past CSMs have rarely had more than one or two items they can declare 'theirs'; The same goes for CSM6. CSM6 is the most effective body yet. Says your ego.

And, the truth is, most of the 'null' CSM folks that feed your conspiracy theories are relatively inactive. Trebor, Two Step and Meissa are incredibly active in CSM6, and they hail from no alliance - Wormholes, Hiseccers and Lowsec. And working with them, the active null reps have gotten a lot done. Proof or GTFO. All I have seen you do is belittle and ruin the reputation of CCP because of your childish personality and ignorance.

But of course, that's not what your thread is about. Your thread is about miners being blown up in hisec, so you woke up and wrote a lot of uninformed words about "Goon Control" of the CSM while mourning your lost mining barge. Again your ignorance shines through.


I find it so gratifying when I hear gamers from other MMO's and even those from other games talk about the bad reputation that Goonswarm has among the gaming community. It's calling **** "mud" but still funny none the less. You are basically the worst that gamers have to offer and unfortunately you decided to join EvE. I still find it amazing how you think you are accomplishing so much when in fact you are doing more damage than good. And that has nothing to do with the CSM as a whole. That has to do with who is currently on top of the CSM not representing anybody in EvE except his little minority and his own interests.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821

Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
The Revenant Order
#33 - 2011-10-21 20:54:01 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
Jack Carrigan wrote:
Drake calling someone else a fool or noob.

Once again, the pot has called the kettle black.


Yes Jack we all know your so bitter and obsessed in smack talking me at every turn that your obviosuly butthurt.

Get over yourself.


Actually, neither of those are true. However, it is somewhat amusing to see what lame meme you're going to come up with next, or other unintelligent drivel you're going to spray.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||

Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2011-10-21 21:01:12 UTC
Jack Carrigan wrote:
Drake Draconis wrote:
Jack Carrigan wrote:
Drake calling someone else a fool or noob.

Once again, the pot has called the kettle black.


Yes Jack we all know your so bitter and obsessed in smack talking me at every turn that your obviosuly butthurt.

Get over yourself.


Actually, neither of those are true. However, it is somewhat amusing to see what lame meme you're going to come up with next, or other unintelligent drivel you're going to spray.


Yes Jack..keep talkng because you cant help yourself.

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Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2011-10-21 21:54:02 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
Jack Carrigan wrote:
Drake Draconis wrote:
Jack Carrigan wrote:
Drake calling someone else a fool or noob.

Once again, the pot has called the kettle black.


Yes Jack we all know your so bitter and obsessed in smack talking me at every turn that your obviosuly butthurt.

Get over yourself.


Actually, neither of those are true. However, it is somewhat amusing to see what lame meme you're going to come up with next, or other unintelligent drivel you're going to spray.


Yes Jack..keep talkng because you cant help yourself.


Look who's talking.

After mulling this one over...I don't think calling for an end to the CSM is the answer. I think having some representation to CCP is better than having no representation at all. However...the problem does lie in the CSM representing a small minority of the playerbase, primarily Goonswarm due to Mittani and Vile Rat, when they should be representing the entire playerbases best interests.

What is needed for the CSM is people who want to bring balance to not only Nullsec but Lowsec, Highsec and WH space as well. Right now the CSM is pushing for everything to go to Nullsec. They aren't pushing for anything else because Mittani believes that the only part of EvE that matters is his little corner in Null.

Right now it is all about Take ABC's out of WH space and make them Null exclusive. Take Ice out of High and make it Low and Null. Neither of which bring any balance to EvE at all but simply server to line the pockets of those in Null. They will whine about the Risk vs Reward of Null when in fact you can already make a vast amount more ISK in Null than you possibly could ever dream of in Highsec. Next up...remove gas sites from WH space and only put them in Null.

The point is an overall balance for everything needs to be reached and it wasn't accomplished with the past CSM's and certainly won't be with the current CSM. I would say "Vote for Change" in 2012 but we all saw what happened with THAT one. We need a CSM that has no specific interest in any specific part of EvE. We need a CSM that isn't comprised of leadership from some of the worst that gamers have to offer. We need a CSM that has a leader dedicated to improving EvE and helping CCP not creating drama and embarrassing CCP to the general public.

Unfortunately what we need and what we are going to get are likely two entirely different things.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821

Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2011-10-21 21:59:55 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Drake Draconis wrote:
Jack Carrigan wrote:
Drake Draconis wrote:
Jack Carrigan wrote:
Drake calling someone else a fool or noob.

Once again, the pot has called the kettle black.


Yes Jack we all know your so bitter and obsessed in smack talking me at every turn that your obviosuly butthurt.

Get over yourself.


Actually, neither of those are true. However, it is somewhat amusing to see what lame meme you're going to come up with next, or other unintelligent drivel you're going to spray.


Yes Jack..keep talkng because you cant help yourself.


Look who's talking.

After mulling this one over...I don't think calling for an end to the CSM is the answer. I think having some representation to CCP is better than having no representation at all. However...the problem does lie in the CSM representing a small minority of the playerbase, primarily Goonswarm due to Mittani and Vile Rat, when they should be representing the entire playerbases best interests.

What is needed for the CSM is people who want to bring balance to not only Nullsec but Lowsec, Highsec and WH space as well. Right now the CSM is pushing for everything to go to Nullsec. They aren't pushing for anything else because Mittani believes that the only part of EvE that matters is his little corner in Null.

Right now it is all about Take ABC's out of WH space and make them Null exclusive. Take Ice out of High and make it Low and Null. Neither of which bring any balance to EvE at all but simply server to line the pockets of those in Null. They will whine about the Risk vs Reward of Null when in fact you can already make a vast amount more ISK in Null than you possibly could ever dream of in Highsec. Next up...remove gas sites from WH space and only put them in Null.

The point is an overall balance for everything needs to be reached and it wasn't accomplished with the past CSM's and certainly won't be with the current CSM. I would say "Vote for Change" in 2012 but we all saw what happened with THAT one. We need a CSM that has no specific interest in any specific part of EvE. We need a CSM that isn't comprised of leadership from some of the worst that gamers have to offer. We need a CSM that has a leader dedicated to improving EvE and helping CCP not creating drama and embarrassing CCP to the general public.

Unfortunately what we need and what we are going to get are likely two entirely different things.


Everything you brought up is nothing more than rumoring and conjecture.
Gossip at best...CSM talks about alot of things...and most of them get rejected or don't go that far.
Even then most of those subjects are not raised by CSM but by other people.

If your going to live in sheer paranoia then thats your choice...I gave up being fearful of changes in this game simply beacuase the bulk of what they bring in..in-spite of the in-game problems not taken cared of are not all that bad.

CSM is elected....if you got a problem..vote for what you want or run yourself.

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Parsec Seti
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2011-10-21 22:41:02 UTC
Quote:

CSM is elected....if you got a problem..vote for what you want or run yourself.



You're wrong again on this. The CSM only has 10 members. Not all areas of Eve are going to be represented with only 10 members. This should not be a question of "the most votes get to be the voice of the players." Especially since the voter turnout was so low.

Again, this is an issue of listening to the customer (even the stupid ones). Not just the customers who voted. CCP has an obligation to the Eve community, and to itself, to ensure that it understands the concerns of the players - not just the ones that have played the game for several years, and not just the ones that are parts of large voting alliances.

"Welcome to you're doom!"

Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2011-10-21 23:00:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Drake Draconis
Parsec Seti wrote:
Quote:

CSM is elected....if you got a problem..vote for what you want or run yourself.



You're wrong again on this. The CSM only has 10 members. Not all areas of Eve are going to be represented with only 10 members. This should not be a question of "the most votes get to be the voice of the players." Especially since the voter turnout was so low.

Again, this is an issue of listening to the customer (even the stupid ones). Not just the customers who voted. CCP has an obligation to the Eve community, and to itself, to ensure that it understands the concerns of the players - not just the ones that have played the game for several years, and not just the ones that are parts of large voting alliances.


How many people are in thie United States?

How many representives do each state have?


Pretty damn good to have 10 people for how many actual customers again?

Last I checked its really 20...they have auxirarly members as well.

All this keeps showing is your lack of experince in this.

CCP is obligated to make money and be a business...they will listen to cash...like it or not.
We're lucky when they actaully do pay attention...and the only time they tend to do that is when they start losing accounts.

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Big Bad Mofo
Doomheim
#39 - 2011-10-21 23:24:41 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
The timing on these threads is so transparent it makes me laugh.

For months, CSM6 has worked hard to bring home a whole pile of successes. Past CSMs have rarely had more than one or two items they can declare 'theirs'; CSM6 is the most effective body yet.

And, the truth is, most of the 'null' CSM folks that feed your conspiracy theories are relatively inactive. Trebor, Two Step and Meissa are incredibly active in CSM6, and they hail from no alliance - Wormholes, Hiseccers and Lowsec. And working with them, the active null reps have gotten a lot done.

But of course, that's not what your thread is about. Your thread is about miners being blown up in hisec, so you woke up and wrote a lot of uninformed words about "Goon Control" of the CSM while mourning your lost mining barge.



I have never heard someone blow so much smoke up his own ass. Thats laughable. Timing being people have had enough of you and the CSM. Your fellow goons may troll and kiss your ass MIttani, but its clear you dont have the support you think you have outside your alliance buddies. Its a little strange that lots and lots of people are now speaking out against you and goons. Quite frankly ill say what people are thinking GTFO.

Is that hurting your ego? Get over it.....
Raid'En
#40 - 2011-10-21 23:32:47 UTC
csm6 is obviously rigged on what they battle for.
however, it's a csm who make more changes needed happen to TQ.
that's an huge improvement.

if you want them to listen to you, make sure to vote for the one who will represent your playstyle next time, that's all.
but anyway i doubt csm7 will be so nullsec focused, as people will have realized they need to elect more high sec / others guys, and anyway the big changes for null will be already done.
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