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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Sigras
Conglomo
#6281 - 2012-11-28 09:17:44 UTC
OT, i have a few problems with your thoughts on the balance of things in game; most of what you said i completely agree with but there are a few errors in your logic . . .

OT Smithers wrote:
Minmatar have arguably the best pirate faction ships in the game.

This argument is completely moot as they only have half the needed pirate faction ships . . . you could say the same about gallente yet nobody flies their ships.

OT Smithers wrote:
CCP removed the T2 penalties on projectile ammo years ago.

The penalty for T2 ammo happened around a year ago years implies more than one year.

OT Smithers wrote:
* The Gallente, until recently, had serious problems largely based upon broken hybrids and a reliance on drones. They were never as bad off as the Caldari, but they were close. Today they have a solid lineup of excellent ships in every category, but still suffer from issues with medium hybrids and drones.

Yeah because the deimos and ishtar are great HACs Roll ooh yeah! and dat battleship lineup is to die for Roll

OT Smithers wrote:
* The Caldari, until a year ago with the Hybrid fix, had basically one non-ECM combat ship: the Drake. And most people laughed at that. They were considered the PvE only race for a reason -- that's what they were. Even today they have as many broken and useless hulls as every other race in the game combined. Further, in order to use their complete ship lineup a player is forced to train two separate weapon systems. They have no choice, and if you are going to train direct fire weapons anyway, there was absolutely no practical reason to stick with the broken race. They are still, years fter everyone else, waiting to see their T2 ammo penalties removed.

You realize that every race has to train two weapon systems right? The Ishtar, Arbitrator, Vexor, Sacrilige, Typhoon and all of the stealth bombers would like a word with you if you disagree.

I guess my main problem with 90% of this thread is that just because every other ship this race has is underpowered, doesnt mean that one of their ships can be overpowered.

Yes, many of the caldari ships need an overhaul (oh look theyre doing that right now) but that doesnt justify any of their other ships being overpowered.

I recently heard a different argument using this logic; they said that "its ok that the Nyx is clearly the best supercarrier and the Moros usually the best dreadnaught because the gallente have terrible subcaps" . . . OR "its ok that the Nidhogger, Hel and Naglfar are the worst caps, the minmatar have the best subcaps" . . .

This is clearly wrong and illustrates my point perfectly.
Kali Starchaser
Void Runner Salvage and Acquisitions
#6282 - 2012-11-28 10:10:02 UTC
All my months of training for being able to solo T4 missions just got kicked in the nuts by the nerf to HM and Draketank.. Now I have to start over focusing on a new 'viable ship' and I am ticked off. If I knew heavy missiles were about to be useless I wouldn't have spent all that time training for them and would have worked on other skills.
Ultimate Gunpower
Spooks On Pings
SE7EN-SINS
#6283 - 2012-11-28 13:09:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Ultimate Gunpower
OT Smithers wrote:
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:
I think one of the reason minmatar ships, and thus projectile weapons have been so popular is due to the rifter generation. When I started playing and wanted to start PvP evryones first remark was. Get a rifter. As a result I still fly exclusively minmatar ships. This no longer happens since the rifter is now one of the weakest frigates. Skills do influence what people fly even far after a nerf or buff.


I agree, but it goes beyond this. Here's some other factors:

1. Most Eve players don't really understand how their guns work or what things like optimal and falloff really mean. They see huge DPS numbers from projectiles and believe that's what they are doing at falloff.

2. Minmatar have decent to exceptional PvP ships in every class from frigates to T2 BSs. No exceptions.

3. Minmatar have arguably the best pirate faction ships in the game.

4. Speed matters. It is, in my opinion, perhaps the most valuable asset a ship can have. Minmatar typically have the fastest ships.

5. CCP removed the T2 penalties on projectile ammo years ago.

Now take that and consider their opponents:

* The Gallente, until recently, had serious problems largely based upon broken hybrids and a reliance on drones. They were never as bad off as the Caldari, but they were close. Today they have a solid lineup of excellent ships in every category, but still suffer from issues with medium hybrids and drones.

* The Amarr have been a solid non-Minmatar choice for years. Solid, but unspectacular. I think it is here that your Rifter statement most correctly applies. Like the Minmatar, they too saw T2 ammo penalties removed years ago.

* The Caldari, until a year ago with the Hybrid fix, had basically one non-ECM combat ship: the Drake. And most people laughed at that. They were considered the PvE only race for a reason -- that's what they were. Even today they have as many broken and useless hulls as every other race in the game combined. Further, in order to use their complete ship lineup a player is forced to train two separate weapon systems. They have no choice, and if you are going to train direct fire weapons anyway, there was absolutely no practical reason to stick with the broken race. They are still, years fter everyone else, waiting to see their T2 ammo penalties removed.

Most Caldari pilots did the same thing I did. As soon as they realized how farked they were, they switched to another race and never looked back. I chose Minmatar, not for the Rifter, but for the dozens and dozens of exceptional hulls. It doesn't matter what class of ship I pick, I not only will have something good, but I will almost always have multiple choices. What's not to love?

Had I stuck with Caldari all those years ago... had I trusted CCP to actually fix their game.... I would STILL be waiting. Maybe next year the Caldari will have a working HAC, right?



Nice Post, not 100% correct but still I get your point and agree. Caldari is really a race that I would not say is on top of the PvP food chain. The fact that the drake is a decent hull does not mean that it overpowers every other BC out there, actually far from it. The only time it will own is at range and as such the only nerf that should have been done is to the range of heavy missiles and nothing else.

The fact that it seems to be a more popular ship I feel is attributed to the fact that there are more Caldari pilots then any other race, not 100% sure of the stats but I would put some money on that.

With the proposed nerf they will make all the other hulls even worse then before. The poor tengu will have pathetic dps but maybe the HAM variation may be good due to increased range but still not ideal.

I have spent years trainging Caldari despite the struggle and this is the reward for years of subscription and ISK sunk into an empty hole. Like yourself I am too moving on to Winmitar :) see what I did there... But with that said I am keeping a keen eye on CCP and deciding if their efforts to null and void my skills will cause me to cancel my subs on all my accounts...

It is not fair that missiles get nailed and all the other weapons stay as potent as they are. 1 vs 1 a drake is a fair match to a cain, myrm, brutix provided both parties have relatively similar skills. You cannot comapre a maxed toon on missiles in a fight which he/she wins 1 vs 1 against another player with lesser skills. Yes maxed skills gives very high dps on HMLs but maxed on hybrids, lazers or projectiles the DPS is just as impressive...

Another thing is that a drake is a noobish pvp ship and is relatively easy to fly and that was half the appeal not the overwhelming dps. It was cap stable, with decent buff and ok dps so you could switch all the mods on and wait for the beep :) just like a microwave.

Anyway I have had my say before and at least they took the dps nerf down from 20% to 10% but I can't say I am overly happy about this.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6284 - 2012-11-28 14:42:24 UTC
Ultimate Gunpower wrote:
It is not fair that missiles get nailed and all the other weapons stay as potent as they are. 1 vs 1 a drake is a fair match to a cain, myrm, brutix provided both parties have relatively similar skills. You cannot comapre a maxed toon on missiles in a fight which he/she wins 1 vs 1 against another player with lesser skills. Yes maxed skills gives very high dps on HMLs but maxed on hybrids, lazers or projectiles the DPS is just as impressive...


226 dps with bad tracking and 6% medium hybrid implant and mindlink... Impressive?

[Ferox]

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250mm Railgun II, Spike M
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Lili Lu
#6285 - 2012-11-28 15:04:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:


1. Most Eve players don't really understand how their guns work or what things like optimal and falloff really mean. They see huge DPS numbers from projectiles and believe that's what they are doing at falloff.



I don't think point no1 is fair as evidenced by this thread a great deal of people fully understand how their guns work and have a deeply ingrained knowledge of fall off and optimal range/tracking etc and how that effects their ability to project power within the range of their weapon system.

I do agree with all of your other points though.

No OT is right in this point, although I disagree with about all his other points in that post. Most of the people itt whining about minmatar don't understand the dps loss to falloff with projectile weapons. They look at base (within optimal) dps numbers and blindly apply them to all ranges of optimal plus falloff. Minmatar's biggest advantage is speed. With micro jump drives and other changes that could become less of a trump card.

OT is wrong that Gallente somehow are doing better than Caldari atm. Minmatar is on top atm, but Caldari is second and from what has been done of rebalancing may be on top going forward (until they introduce the TD effects on missiles and maybe restore some balance) And Amarr is living on a few ships atm, Abaddon, Navy Apoc, Zealot, and Oracle. But of course the point is that all this will change as they rebabalance ships. BC rebalancing is going to be huge. People will not like losing tier 2 and 3 power. But it has to be done for the good of the game. It will make all those newly buffed Cruisers more relavant again. And of course when they get to tech II cruisers it will be very interesting.

Don't worry though, at least we'll all get to complain about the new imbalances as things settle out, and have those addressed within a year, or less, hopefully. Unlike what has been the situation. Where the tier 2 BCs were introduced. Caldari pilots complained massivley about the Myrm, got it harshly nerfed immediately, and then proceeded to enjoy 4 years of dominance in that class. Crocodile tears . .
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#6286 - 2012-11-28 18:51:11 UTC
Kali Starchaser wrote:
All my months of training for being able to solo T4 missions just got kicked in the nuts by the nerf to HM and Draketank.. Now I have to start over focusing on a new 'viable ship' and I am ticked off. If I knew heavy missiles were about to be useless I wouldn't have spent all that time training for them and would have worked on other skills.

Like none of the skills you just trained would be transferrable to something else.

Take 3 weeks, get Caldari BS 4 and Cruise Missile or torpedo 4 and do the same thing in a Raven (which is in many ways better for L4 missions than the Drake and shares all the same fitting skill recommendations).

Or maybe get a Caldari Navy Scorpion and get the shield resist bonus and a full 8 midslots for tank! (Is this the only ship with 8 mids?)

Shifting out of the Drake is hardly a big deal and most of the training time you have to put into doing it properly carries over well to other ships.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6287 - 2012-11-28 18:59:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Or maybe get a Caldari Navy Scorpion and get the shield resist bonus and a full 8 midslots for tank! (Is this the only ship with 8 mids?)


Widow. At least from subcaps.
In Widow those midslots are used for something else though...
Faora Zod
Don't mess with this DoJo
#6288 - 2012-11-30 03:24:04 UTC
So I noticed we are having to wait for the "balancing" of the EW effects on missiles, is there going to be a new thread to make our points of the pros and cons of it or do we get to discuss it here?

I am taking it that since there is only 5 days now until the expansion, that these "balancing" suggestions are final since there has not been an update in awhile.Still think it is BS for people to ***** and moan over how another player plays this game when they can train to do the same thing.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6289 - 2012-11-30 04:09:57 UTC
Yeah, it's good thing that in EVE we can choose. In other MMOs there's always one class that is good at everything. Also good thing is that we don't have anything like that in EVE. Roll
Sigras
Conglomo
#6290 - 2012-11-30 05:04:50 UTC
Faora Zod wrote:
So I noticed we are having to wait for the "balancing" of the EW effects on missiles, is there going to be a new thread to make our points of the pros and cons of it or do we get to discuss it here?

I am taking it that since there is only 5 days now until the expansion, that these "balancing" suggestions are final since there has not been an update in awhile.Still think it is BS for people to ***** and moan over how another player plays this game when they can train to do the same thing.

so your solution to something totally overpowered is to have everyone train to do that?

why do we even have different ships then? that suggestion is idiotic.
cBOLTSON
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6291 - 2012-11-30 10:57:42 UTC
CCP FOZZIE wrote:

Short Range Missiles
Change the Guided Missile Precision skill, as well as all associated implants and rigs to affect all subcap missiles
Reduce HAM launcher PG requirements by 10%

IS this going live? If so thankyou! Does that mean we can improve hams through the use of all rigs now? (The fitting buff is very appreciated too mate)

The good old days of Unreal Tournament, fragging and sniping on Facing Worlds, listening to Foregone Destruction.......
cBOLTSON
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6292 - 2012-11-30 11:20:59 UTC
Minmatar gets a lot of love because people are risk adverse and Minny ships generally have the most speed and maneuverability in fights.
Now personally I use not just Minmatar but the other races too but for any cruisers / bc`s I always seem to want to emulate the Minmatar philosophy, great speed with good range and mediocre tank.

Yea I could go full Amarrian style and go brick tank and laser dps, but then I'm very slow and lumbering with too much reliance on capacitor.

I could go full Gallente and go for close range OK-ish tank amazing damage, but then I have to travel very far to actually apply real dps , getting picked off a lot in the process. (Drones can be very hit and miss, used correctly there excellent but il leave that out for now)

Then there's the Caldari way, long range with missiles or railguns. It can work ok, but still every time I much prefer the Minmatar style.

Its partly what the person likes to do, partly what there skills will allow, and certainly in larger warfare in eve a lot to do with what the FC calls for.
There are a lot of variations but that's my general take on the situation.

The good old days of Unreal Tournament, fragging and sniping on Facing Worlds, listening to Foregone Destruction.......
Faora Zod
Don't mess with this DoJo
#6293 - 2012-11-30 12:19:31 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Faora Zod wrote:
So I noticed we are having to wait for the "balancing" of the EW effects on missiles, is there going to be a new thread to make our points of the pros and cons of it or do we get to discuss it here?

I am taking it that since there is only 5 days now until the expansion, that these "balancing" suggestions are final since there has not been an update in awhile.Still think it is BS for people to ***** and moan over how another player plays this game when they can train to do the same thing.

so your solution to something totally overpowered is to have everyone train to do that?

why do we even have different ships then? that suggestion is idiotic.



Actually it is not Idiotic, Only an idiot does not understand that lowering the "OP DPS" of the missiles is not an actual representation of how munitions really work in the real world. If you look at the actual real world application of munitions you would understand that
1. Lasers should have the longest range
2. Hybrids and Projectiles should have the greatest ROF
3. Missiles should do more damage.

That is the REAL "balancing" of the weapons, not nerfing the damage to missiles.

As for being able to fly multi-racial ships, only an idiot would not understand the value to both PVP and PVE of being able to switch up the game.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6294 - 2012-11-30 13:34:32 UTC
Faora Zod wrote:


Actually it is not Idiotic, Only an idiot does not understand that lowering the "OP DPS" of the missiles is not an actual representation of how munitions really work in the real world.


This isn't the "Real World". This is EvE where space is actually a liquid medium, the speed of light is infinately faster and lots of other wierd **** happens.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6295 - 2012-11-30 15:14:35 UTC
Faora Zod wrote:
Actually it is not Idiotic, Only an idiot does not understand that lowering the "OP DPS" of the missiles is not an actual representation of how munitions really work in the real world. If you look at the actual real world application of munitions you would understand that
1. Lasers should have the longest range
2. Hybrids and Projectiles should have the greatest ROF
3. Missiles should do more damage.

That is the REAL "balancing" of the weapons, not nerfing the damage to missiles.

As for being able to fly multi-racial ships, only an idiot would not understand the value to both PVP and PVE of being able to switch up the game.


EVE Online != Real World

Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep
Lili Lu
#6296 - 2012-11-30 17:40:36 UTC
Faora Zod wrote:
[quote=Sigras] Actually it is not Idiotic, Only an idiot does not understand that lowering the "OP DPS" of the missiles is not an actual representation of how munitions really work in the real world. If you look at the actual real world application of munitions you would understand that
1. Lasers should have the longest range
2. Hybrids and Projectiles should have the greatest ROF
3. Missiles should do more damage.

That is the REAL "balancing" of the weapons, not nerfing the damage to missiles.

As for being able to fly multi-racial ships, only an idiot would not understand the value to both PVP and PVE of being able to switch up the game.

Most of what you post I roll my eyes at. However, you are correct about the design incongruities with "real" weapon characteristics.
Lasers should have the most range and best tracking, but the least damage. Missiles the most alpha. etc.

But as has been pointed out, the game is not a simulator. The design has a history. And any alterations are constrained by that history. If you absolutely can't stomach the perceived inconsistencies of varying levels between the game and the "real world", well then you know what to do. One has to look at the gameplay balance as the developers are doing. They don't want everyone eventually flying drakes, which was happening, and to a lesser extent everyone flying tier 2 BCs even.

As for your question about the tracking mod changes to affecting missiles. Yes, I suspect there will be a new thread when they actually present a definite proposal on those changes. We will get to argue anew about whether there should be more modules, more scripts, more or less strength on the effects, etc.
Meolyne
Perkone
Caldari State
#6297 - 2012-11-30 17:54:10 UTC
Each race has is specificities.
Eve Online will die the day every races will be identical. It would become a "more skilled, the better" game. Aka vet' lover. and vet is a rare ressource.

Chimera is the shield tan-King
Thanatos is the PVE rat lover
Archon is the Armor tan-King
Nidhoggur is the Logistic-King Disney's new imperial super-cruiser toy.

sames sort of things applies on other ships. Just pick what you prefer.
If you trained HML for PVE drake and now crying, i say Go for a raven, invest 1.5b, 1 month more skills into missiles, and take a look at your new Ultra-DPS CNR (1000dps Cruise, 1600dps Torp)
Over tanked PVE Golem
Incursion Tank Anchor Scorp/Rattle..

Drake was not meant to do L4, why you're still crying ? No never wasted any single skill. they're all useful someday.
Faora Zod
Don't mess with this DoJo
#6298 - 2012-12-01 00:33:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Faora Zod
edited because my response didn't post
Faora Zod
Don't mess with this DoJo
#6299 - 2012-12-01 00:41:20 UTC
Meolyne wrote:
Each race has is specificities.
Eve Online will die the day every races will be identical. It would become a "more skilled, the better" game. Aka vet' lover. and vet is a rare ressource.

Chimera is the shield tan-King
Thanatos is the PVE rat lover
Archon is the Armor tan-King
Nidhoggur is the Logistic-King Disney's new imperial super-cruiser toy.

sames sort of things applies on other ships. Just pick what you prefer.
If you trained HML for PVE drake and now crying, i say Go for a raven, invest 1.5b, 1 month more skills into missiles, and take a look at your new Ultra-DPS CNR (1000dps Cruise, 1600dps Torp)
Over tanked PVE Golem
Incursion Tank Anchor Scorp/Rattle..

Drake was not meant to do L4, why you're still crying ? No never wasted any single skill. they're all useful someday.



Can use please share with me a link to a DEV blog or something that says what ships are meant to do lvl 4 missions. I have read this several times and have yet to have a LVL 4 agent present a ship restricting for any subcap. BTW i love the suggestion of people investing 1.5bil into a mission ship, i would have loved to have had a bil 4 months into the game.
Lili Lu
#6300 - 2012-12-01 02:36:09 UTC
Faora Zod wrote:
BTW i love the suggestion of people investing 1.5bil into a mission ship, i would have loved to have had a bil 4 months into the game.

He meant if you want to invest 1.5 bil to then upgrade from base raven to navy raven. You do not need to invest that in a tech II fit base raven which can run level 4s fine, better than your drake because it will kill stuff faster.

As for the the type of ship required for level 4s, with sufficient skills and investment you could run some in an assault frig for the hell of it.

The point though about Drakes is that they have an op tank and have always done just enough dps to make it possible, even for relatively low skilled pilots. Conversely, you cannot do that with a Harby. The Harby cannot both tank a level 4 and put out enough damage to do them with any reasonable investment in sp and isk. The Myrm can be setup to tank them, but the dps is left even less than that of a Drake, considering the sp investment. You may be able to run some angel level 4s in a passive recharge Cane, as long as you avoid getting webbed.

Basically, it has been only Caldari pilots that can get away with doing level 4s with a low skilled BC. That is not balance. Or don't you understand that? Regardless, losing 10% damage will make the overly risk averse missioners spend more time to run level 4s in the Drake. Which is a good thing. Once the BC base shield regen is nerfed it will be even more mind numbing to try to run them in a drake. Enjoy the coming balance, and train a BS like everyone else.