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Dev blog: War. War never changes..until it does

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Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-11-29 15:28:50 UTC
most seems very good.

Don't know about the 10km capture points from beacon though.

I understand the that it might have been a little to easy to avoid combat, on the other hand iFW plexes where one of the few plaed where snippers (long range) weapons could shine in both offence and defence.

By making people jump on eachother the long range weapon systems will become less usefiul.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2012-11-29 15:30:21 UTC
I'd to see new tags based around small nmbers of NPCs. Or muli tag drops?

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
CCP Affinity
C C P
C C P Alliance
#43 - 2012-11-29 15:36:34 UTC
Maz3r Rakum wrote:
A large source of income for me at least came from tags collected while plexing.

Will the new NPC contain a similar amount of tags as before?


Each NPC will have 1-2 tags. We will also be monitoring the tag situation and can adjust drops as necessary

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Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
#44 - 2012-11-29 15:51:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Haifisch Zahne
I hope this UI "trickery", which CCP Fozzie says will be used elsewhere, does not disappear if the mouse wanders away from the textbox. I can say definitely that I could barely see that top-secret-input-widget-trickery.

As someone whose vision is not what it use to be, teeny tiny buttons (and crappy mice made today, like the "G9x") and itty bitty type do not lend themselves to ease of use. (Yes, I know CCP Gorgeous... errr... CCP Punkturis... gave us the option to change text sizes, but there is just too much information in Eve to avail myself of this option.) So.... it would be nice if some of these input fields had an "exploded view" in larger text than normal (... can anyone say, "sticky option"?) Leaving aside trickery, if there were more places to allow changing text size for just that textbox, it would be a HUGE help. (Why does the Local chat textbox allow text font size changes but no other chat channel does, what's with that?)

I currently am having a horrible time in the Market, for example. Exploded views of the Buy/Sell/Modify would be awesome. Also, the ability to change my current price based on another price in the market by, say, double-clicking on it in the Market list or some other way, would be a great help.

Learned the scroll-wheel trick to changing prices. "Trickery" like this is a BIG help. (How long has that trickery been availabe? Since day 1 of Eve?)


Oh, the changes to FW rats seems contrary to what is needed. Just my two cents from someone who could give a rat ... about FW.


[EDIT: For Market order Buy/Sell/Modify, it would be nice to see a color coded line (???) where your order would fit if it was at the price entered.]
JasonXXL
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-11-29 15:51:13 UTC  |  Edited by: JasonXXL
Allowing Tech 2 cruisers into medium plexes will kill the Tech 1 cruiser pvp that is going on in the medium plexes in the current system. Altough Tech 1 cruisers are being rebalanced, I doubt they will be a viable fleet ship: for not alot more isk you get a Tech 1 battlecruiser with all the benefits that brings. That is why it needs a plex to shine.

By rebalancing the Tech 1 cruisers and especially buffing the Tech 1 logistic cruisers I think CCP made a real good step towards making cruiser combat alot more interesting. Allowing Tech 2 cruisers into the medium plexes however will make these new Tech 1 logistic cruisers immediately obsolete. Add to that the Tech 2 resists from HAC's and the power in smallscale combat of Falcons and there will be no reason for bringin a Tech 1 cruiser into a medium plex because they will be utterly outclassed by their Tech 2 variants.

I suggest moving the Tech 2 cruisers to the larger plexes and keeping the medium plexes pirate cruiser and down.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#46 - 2012-11-29 15:54:38 UTC

1.) I really think it's sad that pirate (and navy to a lesser extent) are allowed into the Novice complexes. These ships are much more akin to t2 frigate hulls, and compete well against t2 frigates. Typically, they dominate the t1 lineup... Was this a coding problem or something? At least you took out the dessies.... that will help a TON.

2.) The small complexes look like a solid setup! Good Job there...

3.) I was hoping the medium would not allow t2 or faction cruisers.... but if you allow faction, I think it's a good choice to include t2 in the mix. Faction, especially pirate, are more on par with t2 and would otherwise dominate this plex...

4.) I thought you were going to add a fifth level of plex... ideally something between medium and large.... Did that not pan out?

fukier
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-11-29 15:56:31 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ashnazg wrote:
The ship restrictions for novice complexes are hilarious. Faction frigates are of the same level as T2 frigates, yet they are allowed in while the latter arent.

And what is the reasoning behind disallowing ROOKIE SHIPS in NOVICE complexes?

Make Novice t1+rookie ship only, and the plex hierarchy makes sense.


Besides the challenge faced by unprepared new players in rookie ships, the ability to defensive plex in a rookie ship was deemed too powerful to allow them in.

As for the faction ships, we will be monitoring the situation and if needed we can take actions such as banning pirate faction frigs from the Novice plexes.


TBH just make novice tech I frigs only...

also there should be a random chance for an npc to spawn after you take out the first one (even with in the alloted time)

this wil stop people like me from bringing in a speed tanked ship to finish off the plex... i.e. an incursus without any guns and a wcs...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
KiithSoban
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#48 - 2012-11-29 16:00:20 UTC  |  Edited by: KiithSoban
Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes!

Exactly what I wanted =)

edit: see later post

KiithSoban wrote:
Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes!

Exactly what I wanted =)


I retract my previous statement.

I now realise that by moving the capture point closer to the warp in it gives a major defensive advantage outlined by 2manno Asp in his thread linked here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=177156

I could argue for moving the capture point to within 40km to the warp in, but 10km is just too much.

I want to see logi appear on killmails! (by just repping)  See CSM "reasonable things"
Maz3r Rakum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-11-29 16:01:33 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
Maz3r Rakum wrote:
A large source of income for me at least came from tags collected while plexing.

Will the new NPC contain a similar amount of tags as before?


Each NPC will have 1-2 tags. We will also be monitoring the tag situation and can adjust drops as necessary



You don't exactly need a crystal ball to know that this is a rather large nerf to FW. Additionally it isn't a nerf to the farmers but the people who acctually killed the rats in a proper ship.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#50 - 2012-11-29 16:02:34 UTC
Well I guess I'll stop risking the Naga on gates and just use a catalyst for all my plexing needs. Roll
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#51 - 2012-11-29 16:07:28 UTC
Hmm. Not sure I can see CCP Affinity with Ron Perlman's voice.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Axl Borlara
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2012-11-29 16:11:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Axl Borlara
This is my view:


  • Novice complexes now only accept tech1 frigates (rookie ships will be excluded)
  • Small complexes now accept all frigates (including tech 1, tech 2, all pirate/navy variants) plus tech 1 destroyers
  • Medium complexes will accept all frigate and destroyer variations, plus tech 1 cruisers
  • Large complexes will have no ship restrictions


The largest ship type in a plex must be limited to tech 1 only for it to work.
Every ship type has a reasonably balanced area to fight in.

What are the arguments against this?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#53 - 2012-11-29 16:16:32 UTC
Axl Borlara wrote:
This is my view:


  • Novice complexes now only accept tech1 frigates (rookie ships will be excluded)
  • Small complexes now accept all frigates (including tech 1, tech 2, all pirate/navy variants) plus tech 1 destroyers
  • Medium complexes will accept all frigate and destroyer variations, plus tech 1 cruisers
  • Large complexes will have no ship restrictions to enter and will spawn a Battlecruiser NPC


The largest ship type in a plex must be limited to tech 1 only for it to work.
Every ship type has a reasonably balanced area to fight in.

What are the arguments against this?


Allow t2 dessies in the small... Interdictors are, combat wise, on par with t1 dessies....

If you do NOT include navy and Pirate in your definition of Tech 1, I think your setup is reasonable...
Almity
In Exile.
#54 - 2012-11-29 16:16:58 UTC
Allowing T2 cruisers in what was "medium" plexes is silly. Ahacs/guardians/recons are on par with BC up fleets not T1 cruisers. Put them where they belong and you got yourself a good system here.

Would be a shame to see all these new cruiser changes go to waste because of a silly mistake like this.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#55 - 2012-11-29 16:24:42 UTC
Allowing Faction Frigates in novice complexes is good. Disallowing Destroyers is very good! But allowing Pirate Frigates is bad, they are just soo much overpowered.

With regards to small complexes, I think you should allow T1 Cruisers and Faction Cruisers here too. (No Pirate cruisers!)
Picardise
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2012-11-29 16:30:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Picardise
I agree that the t1 variant of the highest allowed ship class should rule the plex with the t2 variants of lower classes included. As a newb who can afford to lose multiple vexors, but not ishtars, I will have nowhere to plex in my Vexor if I need to compete with t2 cruisers.

Really excited about all the work you guys have been doing!

Question: what will the lp payouts be for the plexes now? Will the novice now give 10k, or less than that?
Arkalia Rankala
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2012-11-29 16:32:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkalia Rankala
I'm concerned about moving the beacon so close to the warp-in. Sniping fits seem like they'd be a thing of the past with warp-ins so close.

As mentioned by others, including Faction/Pirate ships in with the T1 is a mistake.
FistyMcBumBasher
State War Academy
Caldari State
#58 - 2012-11-29 16:42:43 UTC  |  Edited by: FistyMcBumBardier
Those geography changes are 100% sex syrup.

Any word on if the FW LP store is ever going to get items not attainable from the mission runner LP store?

The way the rats are designed seem like they will be easy to just run and gun even the majors with one or two destroyers. Once again allowing players to solo the majors in undersized ships and AFK for the rest of the timer. What about putting the spawns randomly throughout the spawn timer? So one wave spawns on start, the second between 3-6 minutes, third from between 7-12 minutes etc.

I disagree with allowing the faction frigates into the novice player plexes mostly because I feel the faction frigates are on par with the inties and assault ships. Removing faction frigates from the novice plexes would also give the navy frigates room to shine. The plexes are also called novice after all, and I don't know many novice's that learn pvp in dramiels and daredevils.

Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Nice work team, as usual! The LP store improvements were a great surprise and a huge quality of life improvement for Faction Warriors (Especially the LP *****s. I know, I know, carpal tunnel from shopping is one of those “1st world problems” but its just as helpful for us weekend warriors.)

Now, for the “what’s next” stuff – Timers, timers, timers. The lack of visibility on the timers and lack of rollback for unoccupied plexes is hugely frustrating. I sincerely hope there are concrete plans to address this in a .1 patch. They are critical fixes to the PvP nature of plexing and needed to create a strong danger of being attacked in a plex and encouraging pilots to fight instead of to flee. Especially with the NPC’s nerfed down this hard and so easy to kill, we’re relying on players now to defend and take space – so lets make it dangerous. This should be an immediate priority with what time is left for FW work.

Secondly, I hope the option remains to tweak the site balance. I think most of us expected the current Major plexes to become Larges, and I’ve said before there needs to be more opportunities for bigger fights in FW, not just frigate / cruiser combat constantly, though the new plex distribution is a lovely haven for small-scale combat. The ship balancing will contribute to a really fun variety of engagements now that the NPC’s won’t be dictate what we can bring. That being said, with the only place for BC and up combat being what were the old unrestricted plexes and bunker busts, I’m afraid we’re about to see a lot less battlecruiser fights in general. It’s two steps forward, one step back in terms of making Faction Warfare a place for true diversity in engagement size. We’ll see how it plays out, but I hope these can be tweaked if it becomes a monotonous frigate-fest too quickly.

And once again, thanks for jumping on the opportunity to squeeze in the geography changes, they look fantastic and I know it’ll go a long ways towards making our warzone in particular much more competitive.



The timer rollback seems like it will be unnecessary if plexes are no longer AFK'able, you warp in at long point range, and there are only a few plexes per system your ship can actually handle. This combined with the visible timer would make the most effective way to defend running around in small groups warping into the plexes right before the solo/other pilot finishes up their plex. I fear that this would just enforce defenders to dog pile into plexes at the last minute, therefore making reshipping an even stronger tactic. The factor of not knowing what you are warping into is where the excitement comes from.

Quote:

A lot of players told us how much they disliked having to travel more than 80KM to the capture point and we also felt this discouraged PvP within sites. To counter this we have also made the followed adjustments to the complexes:

All capture beacons have been moved much closer to the warp-in point – they are now 10KM off warp-in



Holy blumpkin this will change it up quite a bit. No chance for the defending fleet to be out of position. This is hard to tell if the outcome will be good or bad, but shaking up the meta even more cannot be bad. Now you know you are going to get a fight if you dare to warp in.

Edit: Some words here, some words there.
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#59 - 2012-11-29 16:44:41 UTC
The way to support snipers is not to move the beacon farther away, but increase the capture range. As it stands you can be 40km away from warp in and still be capturing. If that is not far enough for you snipers, maybe the range should be increased.

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

FistyMcBumBasher
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-11-29 16:46:57 UTC
Ashterothi wrote:
The way to support snipers is not to move the beacon farther away, but increase the capture range. As it stands you can be 40km away from warp in and still be capturing. If that is not far enough for you snipers, maybe the range should be increased.


Goodbye 100km cormorant fleets.