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Don’t make the Ferox redundant please
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Renier Gaden
Immortal Guides
#21 - 2012-11-28 20:21:26 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
One thing that I feel is going unnoticed is that in making the Ferox a brawler you're making it redundant.

Not only are you limiting its effectiveness to close range, but I also feel you're forgetting about the upcoming missile changes.

Hams are getting a nice buff, and they're going to be effected by guided missile precision.

Now, since hmls are getting a 25% range nerf, 10% damage nerf, 10% effectiveness nerf, and fury is being nerfed on all long range missile systems to precision range, this is going to make the drake almost purely focused on brawling.

The only thing I worry is that they're going to forget all about the hml nerfs when they go to balancing the drake and they're going to end up taking away the shield recharge rate forcing them to fit active tanks to be more succeptible to cap warfare.


That said though, the point still is that I think the Ferox is best suited with having the versatility of brawler or ranged.

However, I think it should be given a bonus in some way that gives it a plus at both long range and close range.

Maybe a sig radius bonus?

This would mean it's a small target at close range, but not as effective as a drake, and it would make a decent mid-long range sniper with low sig, but not near as effective or as high range as the Naga.


Basically, making it a brawler is redundant cause the drake will be mostly a brawler, and making it a sniper is redundant cause the Nage is a sniper, so why not make it both?

Oh, and I'm also in agreement with an extra mid slot for more utility


I am not suggesting that they “make” it a brawler. I am suggesting that is already is a brawler, even though that is not what was intended when they designed it. I am mainly just pleadings with them not to take away its brawler abilities. Let it keep it’s tank bonus! If they could add a little speed it would make it an even better brawler without hurting its sniper capability at all.

If they take away the tanking bonus it will be like a Naga with less range and far less DPS. Even with a damage bonus 6 medium rails are not going to come close to the damage of 8 large rail guns, and it will not have the range to sit 100km off for protection. Cruisers and nano Battlecruisers will just run it down and smash it. Battleships will pick it out of the sky even with short range guns. Fast frigates will have it tackled within 10 seconds. Basically as a mid range sniper with no tank it is useless and no one would fly it.

With the tank bonus it can be effective as a mid range sniper or as a brawler. It might fit the same niche as the drake, but it gives Caldari pilots an effective gunboat smaller than the Rokh. It provides an alternative to missiles. In this configuration it would be effective and would be used.

The only way a mid range lightly tanked sniper would be effective is if it is really fast with a small sig radius like the Vagabond. I don’t favour that option for a Caldari ship however.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#22 - 2012-11-28 20:24:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Renier Gaden wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
One thing that I feel is going unnoticed is that in making the Ferox a brawler you're making it redundant.

Not only are you limiting its effectiveness to close range, but I also feel you're forgetting about the upcoming missile changes.

Hams are getting a nice buff, and they're going to be effected by guided missile precision.

Now, since hmls are getting a 25% range nerf, 10% damage nerf, 10% effectiveness nerf, and fury is being nerfed on all long range missile systems to precision range, this is going to make the drake almost purely focused on brawling.

The only thing I worry is that they're going to forget all about the hml nerfs when they go to balancing the drake and they're going to end up taking away the shield recharge rate forcing them to fit active tanks to be more succeptible to cap warfare.


That said though, the point still is that I think the Ferox is best suited with having the versatility of brawler or ranged.

However, I think it should be given a bonus in some way that gives it a plus at both long range and close range.

Maybe a sig radius bonus?

This would mean it's a small target at close range, but not as effective as a drake, and it would make a decent mid-long range sniper with low sig, but not near as effective or as high range as the Naga.


Basically, making it a brawler is redundant cause the drake will be mostly a brawler, and making it a sniper is redundant cause the Nage is a sniper, so why not make it both?

Oh, and I'm also in agreement with an extra mid slot for more utility


I am not suggesting that they “make” it a brawler. I am suggesting that is already is a brawler, even though that is not what was intended when they designed it. I am mainly just pleadings with them not to take away its brawler abilities. Let it keep it’s tank bonus! If they could add a little speed it would make it an even better brawler without hurting its sniper capability at all.

If they take away the tanking bonus it will be like a Naga with less range and far less DPS. Even with a damage bonus 6 medium rails are not going to come close to the damage of 8 large rail guns, and it will not have the range to sit 100km off for protection. Cruisers and nano Battlecruisers will just run it down and smash it. Battleships will pick it out of the sky even with short range guns. Fast frigates will have it tackled within 10 seconds. Basically as a mid range sniper with no tank it is useless and no one would fly it.

With the tank bonus it can be effective as a mid range sniper or as a brawler. It might fit the same niche as the drake, but it gives Caldari pilots an effective gunboat smaller than the Rokh. It provides an alternative to missiles. In this configuration it would be effective and would be used.

The only way a mid range lightly tanked sniper would be effective is if it is really fast with a small sig radius like the Vagabond. I don’t favour that option for a Caldari ship however.


I would suggest with a dmg bonus instead of range bonus and with its curent resist bonus it will be what the brutix would love to be but is restricted with being armour tanked

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Renier Gaden
Immortal Guides
#23 - 2012-11-28 20:30:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Renier Gaden
Harvey James wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
well considering the drake will lose its resist bonus for a ROF most likely and less EHP and prob lose a mid i would say it won't be a brawler more of a kiter.



I don't think the drake will lose its resist bonus.

I feel that they'll just kill the shield recharge making them best suited as active tanks, and/or reducing their EHP and making them more of a buffer tank than a passive tank.

Point is, with the hml nerf, unless they're going to be giving the drake a nice damage and range buff, then the drake will be used mostly as a brawler.



Ofc it will lose its resis bonus missile ships don't need to be really tanky they have such good range..... and also people would prefer more dmg from missile ships


The rang of the HAM Drake is 18km. (Although I guess Javelins would give it more range.) I suppose if it does enough damage it may still be viable without it’s tank bonus. 18km is more than the effective range of medium Blasters. It would have to have a lot of Gank to make it worth losing the Tank, but then at least it would not compete with the Brawler Ferox. Smile
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#24 - 2012-11-28 20:37:32 UTC
Renier Gaden wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
well considering the drake will lose its resist bonus for a ROF most likely and less EHP and prob lose a mid i would say it won't be a brawler more of a kiter.



I don't think the drake will lose its resist bonus.

I feel that they'll just kill the shield recharge making them best suited as active tanks, and/or reducing their EHP and making them more of a buffer tank than a passive tank.

Point is, with the hml nerf, unless they're going to be giving the drake a nice damage and range buff, then the drake will be used mostly as a brawler.



Ofc it will lose its resis bonus missile ships don't need to be really tanky they have such good range..... and also people would prefer more dmg from missile ships


The rang of the HAM Drake is 18km. (Although I guess Javelins would give it more range.) I suppose if it does enough damage it may still be viable without it’s tank bonus. 18km is more than the effective range of medium Blasters. It would have to have a lot of Gank to make it worth losing the Tank, but then at least it would not compete with the Brawler Ferox. Smile


It will hit about 15km with Rage about 700dps or so with a ROF bonus and 25km with Javelin about 600 dps ish.
Ofc that doesn't take into account the TE/TC introduction when they get to them which will increase the potential range even more and there ofc rigs to increases them further

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#25 - 2012-11-28 21:38:29 UTC
the drake is unlikely to lose its resist bonus. as much as i'd love it to have a missile velocity instead.

even if the drake was a brawler (which it wont be cause of faction ammo) the ferox still performs better at close range, so it wouldnt be redundant.

i also dont know about the drake losing a mid or a low. u can take out a high and still have the same ship essentially.

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Orion X04
Corus Aerospace
#26 - 2012-11-28 22:13:53 UTC
Changing the range bonus to damage will allow a Ferox to be fitted with Rails (as intended) and maybe actually do some damage.

This won't stop it being a brawler with blasters (or short range T2 Rail ammo) if the pilot wishes.

Rails already have a decent range without need of a bonus. Also, a range bonus on a Ferox is now pointless as it can't out perform the Naga as a long range rail ship.

PLEASE CCP Don't ruin it by taking away it's resist bonus!



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Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-11-28 22:26:41 UTC
Caldari aren't supposed to use blasters... in terms of lore

If they give it a damage and resist bonus... the Brutix is dead...
Both would be blaster fit, with blaster damage bonus

The active tank bonus on the Brutix would only be 3% better than the resist bonus on the Ferox, for active tanking, while the ferox would get 33% more buffer, and be a better shield fit (shield fit for gank/DPS) meaning better speed and DPS

and then... there is the ASB

Poor armor tanked, active tanked, Brutix

The ASB merlins are already stomping all over the gallente frigs now... the BCs are next
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#28 - 2012-11-28 22:40:50 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Caldari aren't supposed to use blasters... in terms of lore

If they give it a damage and resist bonus... the Brutix is dead...
Both would be blaster fit, with blaster damage bonus

The active tank bonus on the Brutix would only be 3% better than the resist bonus on the Ferox, for active tanking, while the ferox would get 33% more buffer, and be a better shield fit (shield fit for gank/DPS) meaning better speed and DPS

and then... there is the ASB

Poor armor tanked, active tanked, Brutix

The ASB merlins are already stomping all over the gallente frigs now... the BCs are next


well brutix will need some help in terms of stronger rep bonus and stats but also the armour vs shield tanking issue needs to be looked into i believe ccp are doing this atm.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Orion X04
Corus Aerospace
#29 - 2012-11-28 22:48:54 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Caldari aren't supposed to use blasters... in terms of lore

If they give it a damage and resist bonus... the Brutix is dead...
Both would be blaster fit, with blaster damage bonus

The active tank bonus on the Brutix would only be 3% better than the resist bonus on the Ferox, for active tanking, while the ferox would get 33% more buffer, and be a better shield fit (shield fit for gank/DPS) meaning better speed and DPS

and then... there is the ASB

Poor armor tanked, active tanked, Brutix

The ASB merlins are already stomping all over the gallente frigs now... the BCs are next


The Brutix will be fixed in some way to fit the Gallente combat ethic so it can't really be compared against a 'fixed' Ferox. Judging by what CCP have said so far, it's going to be more into closing distance and hard punch whereas the Ferox should be more about significant damage at mid-range.

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#30 - 2012-11-28 23:03:32 UTC
Orion X04 wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Caldari aren't supposed to use blasters... in terms of lore

If they give it a damage and resist bonus... the Brutix is dead...
Both would be blaster fit, with blaster damage bonus

The active tank bonus on the Brutix would only be 3% better than the resist bonus on the Ferox, for active tanking, while the ferox would get 33% more buffer, and be a better shield fit (shield fit for gank/DPS) meaning better speed and DPS

and then... there is the ASB

Poor armor tanked, active tanked, Brutix

The ASB merlins are already stomping all over the gallente frigs now... the BCs are next


The Brutix will be fixed in some way to fit the Gallente combat ethic so it can't really be compared against a 'fixed' Ferox. Judging by what CCP have said so far, it's going to be more into closing distance and hard punch whereas the Ferox should be more about significant damage at mid-range.


No one will use a railgun ferox rails are in a poor state and the naga will wipe the floor with it anyway or a rail talos if you want better tracking just as in any AT tournie you only see tier3 bc's for range combat you might only see a ferox in it for brawling for a reason

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Orion X04
Corus Aerospace
#31 - 2012-11-28 23:12:48 UTC
I totally agree, they can buff the ship but Rails are bad, plain and simple. Until they make Railguns worth anything, they won't be a common sight on any ship (aside from the Naga).

My biggest concern is this idea of removing the resist bonus. That resist bonus is so crucial to the Ferox's survivability it needs to stay.

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Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#32 - 2012-11-28 23:55:26 UTC
If CCP had been real serious about Caldari being long range focused, they would be using lasers with those optimal range bonuses. The mistake was making Caldari a Hybrid weapon using race.

Basically, let the Caldari have more Blaster Brawlers. Don't make them outclass Gallente (well don't try too), but change optimal to falloff or just straight damage. A RoF bonus might also be a way to give Caldari Brawlers a different flavor than Gallente Blasterboats.

Caldari are still masters of their paradigm, but not exclusively so... just like every other race.

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Perihelion Olenard
#33 - 2012-11-29 00:11:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
This random guy agrees with this thread. CCP stated that the sniping cruiser concept didn't work, yet they want to force it on the ferox again. It would be better to be consistent with the ships they have already balanced and leave it as a blaster brawler with a resistance bonus.

Also, the naga's role is clearly sniping. You don't need two BCs filling the same role with the same weapon type. This way, if you have three different roles across the three BCs being filled, there is more variety and all three ships will get used.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-11-29 01:08:12 UTC
**** it, give the ferox a mean tank, slow speed and weapons with lots of range and tracking.

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Renier Gaden
Immortal Guides
#35 - 2012-11-29 18:07:53 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Caldari aren't supposed to use blasters... in terms of lore

If they give it a damage and resist bonus... the Brutix is dead...
Both would be blaster fit, with blaster damage bonus

The active tank bonus on the Brutix would only be 3% better than the resist bonus on the Ferox, for active tanking, while the ferox would get 33% more buffer, and be a better shield fit (shield fit for gank/DPS) meaning better speed and DPS

and then... there is the ASB

Poor armor tanked, active tanked, Brutix

The ASB merlins are already stomping all over the gallente frigs now... the BCs are next

I would not generally bring a Gellente ship to a shield fleet or a Caldari ship to an armour fleet (except possibly an armour tanked ECM ship), so I don’t buy the concern about the Ferox competing with the Brutix. You are not going to be given a choice between the Brutix and the Ferox unless you are flying without Logistics or Support ships.

If the problems with the Brutix stem from the inherent problems with armour, then it should get sorted when they figure out how to fix the issues with armour that plage all armour ships. If the problem is with active armour tanking, then they need to either fix active armour tanking or change the bonus on the Brutix. None of this has any reverence to what they do with the Ferox however, as the Ferox is a shield ship and thus cannot take the place of the Burtix in armour fleets.
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