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Does Killboard Efficiency Calculations discourage fights?
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Holy One
Privat Party
#21 - 2012-11-28 05:06:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Holy One
KB stats do show lots of very useful things and say a lot about you. They most certainly are an indication of your ability.

They can show amongst other things: your ability to adapt, to research, to manage risk, to experiment, to choose targets, to understand the role and optimum application of each hull and to respond to criticism. They also reveal a lot about your personality. Namely: do you like to stalk prey like a hunter, or are you lazy? Do you like low sec, null sec, or both. Are you in to station games or do you shun that stuff. Do you show versatility, or specialization. Do you prefer particular kinds of tank/gank, do you rely on falcon, do you enjoy scenarios where you have a good chance of not winning (I personally only enjoy these kinds of fights nowdays), do you like to bait and overwhelm, do you use alts/links/rr etc etc etc. Are there 300 other dudes and a bubble on every mail? Do you like speed, or durability. Do you fly beyond your ability in isk terms, can you be provoked blah blah blah.

On the issue of efficiency its pretty simple really: if you have <90% you are throwing too much isk in to too few victories and should probably re-think your playstyle. I got 1800 kills in the last year or so and never dipped below 90% on my chars; a success rate of ~8:1 or better and some fiscal prudence will see you fine in that department. Make no mistake I also flew some ******* awful fits and killed a lot of pods as well and compared to some space-heros, I am bloody terrible at this game. Lol

If you are just starting out, losing is fine, losing a lot is even encouraged. If I don't see a lot of early cheap frigate losses on your kb I know you're an alt or a 0.0 f1 masher. Which is also fine btw.

Sadly, also, these days, most pvp chars end up changing hands so kb's are becoming increasingly conflicted and inconsistent and less useful as a guide anwyay .. except to tell us that the ex genos, ex pl dude who just lost a ratting carrier in venal is probably not the original owner.

:)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#22 - 2012-11-28 08:31:40 UTC
I wish I was like some one who lost a Merlin and a Rifter on their first week, but got on a titan killmail with one of those ships.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2012-11-28 08:39:41 UTC
A loss shows me that I made a mistake somewhere during the process of getting killed. The Killboard lists the opponents and also makes it possible to do a little analyse afterwards to either mitigate my deficits or minimize the possibility a loss under the same circumstances. The rest is calculated risk (like flying pvp in High Grade implants...).
For competitive players a k/d ratio is always important in some way. It does not matter if it is in a shooter like bf3, a rank list in wow pvp or the killboards in Eve. At least you should try to have more kills than deaths ;-)

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-11-28 11:12:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Mocam
NEONOVUS wrote:
Easy solution add ships lost to npcs to the api.
Now sucicde ganks reflect poorly on the ganker.


A long time back (a couple years or so ago), a nullsec alliance set up a new killboard and used auto-feeds from the API but forgot to block out NPC losses. I happened to catch a look at the KB while it was running that way and almost lost it laughing at how many ships were lost ratting and the like.

The large amount of PvE based losses to NPC's is a hidden number, just like the gankers that get it from CONCORD. It's why at one point, it was suggested that CCP publish a KB for just the NPC factions -- that showed the player losses to NPC groups. I imagine some of those NPC groups would exceed the KB stats for even the busiest player groups in this game.


As for the current KB's -- around 3 years ago I was involved as a scout. KB shows absolutely nothing about PvP activity yet I was one who helped enable action. There are a few such roles that rarely show on KB's so only losses show up vs their actual participation in such efforts. Actual scouts for fleets seem to have gotten a bit thin lately vs alts being run by fleet members but it wasn't always that way.

I stopped being a scout when I lost a crew due to lack of attention to local changes (spike). Sitting there cloaked while the crew I was watching for got cut up... "Sorry..." - "No big. It happens..." etc. That didn't mean too much to me vs my fubar that got them all popped so I stopped doing it .

These days, I only get involved if it looks like a tough fight. Then I'll hop over and climb in a ship to help fight. If it doesn't look like a real threat, it's not something I'll get involved with. Simply put, if I"m going to fight, I like it to at least *LOOK* like a real threat and there are very few of those these days -- which seems to be how most PvP players like it... Low risk with high KB values showing. They like to win; not fight.

Translation: "risk aversion" has dink to do with it. I really don't care if I lose most of the ships I have scattered around... I can get more easily enough and the boards aren't something I watch.

Mostly I find little value to watching them but others... That's their measuring stick. They don't seem to know how to evaluate anything without KB stats.

The comments about "learning from KB's" - intel wise for planning fights... they can help but beyond that, not really.

It shows who popped you and what you lost, not how they were fit, etc. So the "value" is generally the isk number and quantity/types of ships blown up. Woopie... So 20 ships popped 2 in a 20 vs 2 fight. Win? Not what I'd call a major achievement. Lost? So 20 ships beat 2 - this is a surprise? ...

Each to their own, different ways of looking at things, etc. So some folks like the boards more than others. That's been happening for quite some time.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#25 - 2012-11-28 11:51:43 UTC
Any killboard has to be taken with a pinch of salt because as you pointed out, they are inherently flawed. However they are the only objective metric you can use to judge a player's ability or even if that person is telling the truth. "Yeah I'm a PvPer but I haven't killed anything in the past 3 years".

A killboard can show you if that person has flown ships in combat or not. It can tell you, through losses, if that person has a clue on how to fit ships, or not. It can tell you if that person fights alone, in small groups, or in large blobs. It can tell you if all that person does is grind structures or pop cyno alts. And it can also tell you who that person has been flying with.

However reading more into them than that is a bit of a stretch.

As for killboards affecting fighting style, I think that the consequence of losing your ship far, far outweighs any killboard. No one likes to lose, killboard or not.
Spurty
#26 - 2012-11-28 12:04:52 UTC
Kill boards are many things to many people:

- a snapshot / record of an event
- individual / corp / alliance performance profiler
- kill / death ratio recorder
- ISK kill / loss ratio recorder
- data mine of good and bad fits

Sadly most people dwell on the ISK side. That's sad Because that 50 mill ISK loss can hurt more to a poor player with no revenue streams than a 5bill loss to someone with tons of revenue streams.

Far sooner see more tools developed to replay battles as videos than as line items in an audit.



There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Mohamad Transporte
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-11-28 14:34:15 UTC
KB ratios are indicators.. not a goal (so yes and .. no)
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-11-28 15:30:24 UTC
killboard efficiency does play a part,

but it's rather the avoidance of "pointless losses" that prevent people from engaging on a ground where the battle is not at least equal. Many times a potential fight will guarantee losses, and fleets want to create a possibility of having no losses in a (essentially) fair fight or a fight stacked in their favour. Players don't like logistics and on a small scale (which is what i think think you are speaking about) needless losses sometimes end up causing a fleet to break up for the day. Might as well look for a better situation if it means a fleet will be maintained.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#29 - 2012-11-28 18:32:05 UTC
Leysritt wrote:
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
Everybody pays attention to killboards and they totally matter Straight


Its plays on a compulsive behavior of wanting to look "pro". What looks good having a 99.9% efficiency or a bare 50-60%?


50-60% efficiency looks better when the pilot has many kill and loss mails from solo fights against small gangs.

99% efficiency for a pilot who has 500b isk of kills against SBUs is totally lame.

I know which one I'd rather have on my side.

Oh god.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#30 - 2012-11-28 23:59:33 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:


99% efficiency for a pilot who has 500b isk of kills against SBUs is totally lame.

I know which one I'd rather have on my side.


The SBU killer, cos dread pilots just rock, amirite? lol
xxVastorxx
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-11-29 00:07:27 UTC
i lost a deadspace,/faction fitted thorax to a drake in a 1 vrs 1 and i laughed about it, does that count at all ?
I dont care about looseing ships, i know how to pvp. i just choose to act like a noob so when i find a juicy target i can kill it :D
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2012-11-29 01:51:27 UTC
So I have taken to shooting the gankers in Niaraja and Udema and taking the loot.
Nothing yet that would prevent the gank (I have this foolish hope one day I will get some of the freighter loot)
Apparently they are asking me to stop now and others are saying it is not pvp and does not count.
So I would say yes they are quite upset based on their continuing exulatation on green kill boards and all.

I like their tears, does this mean I am playing EVE now?
Doing nothing of harm and yet get tears for it?
I can only imagine the rage of what would happen if I brought a jam ship. (because really I would expect a war and all if I started preventing the ganks)
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#33 - 2012-11-29 10:56:31 UTC
Suicide ganking the suicide gankers is something I definitely condone. A fine example of emergent gameplay.

Oh god.
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-11-29 12:32:04 UTC
Nobody likes to lose.

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies
Vartan Sarkisian
Phoenix Connection
#35 - 2012-11-29 14:33:51 UTC
I pretty much agree, Currently there are 50 kills on my KB for this month, none of those were achieved by me solo... solo pvp is something I want to get into but have not tried yet. I feel like the information is a bit of a con, and make me look better than I actually am.
Holy One
Privat Party
#36 - 2012-11-29 14:39:23 UTC
KB tells me in 30 seconds if I should risk my implants against you. Thats the #1 application really. It also tells me what you are likely to be flying and how its fit. So intel tool #1, ego tool #99. Mostly its: is this guy in an interdictor and/or is this guy bait.

:)
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