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Does EVE have enough ISK?

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Halin Damal
Moderari Animo
#41 - 2012-11-28 00:05:36 UTC
I only got one issue here:

MIrple wrote:

...there is an over abundance of ISK in circulation...


I don't think I pulled the statement out of context here. As the quoted statements above stands, one could come to the conclusion that this is a well known fact. And if it would be a fact, it means that a hard line between the scenario where there isn't an over abundance of ISK and where there is exists. This can't be a gradual transition, nor a fuzzy line.

Before this discussion can even continue, the magical number which defines the line between over abundance or not, needs to be established.
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#42 - 2012-11-28 00:06:00 UTC
If you have too much isk I'm always available to lighten your load.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
gfldex
#43 - 2012-11-28 00:08:47 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
What confuses me is that pre-drone alloy/meta 0 nerf announcement prices were lower despite the incursion faucet yet now with that source under some control we don't see prices falling. Is there a new faucet that I'm not accounting for?


If you look at the mineral basket you will see quite low prices for ABC ore and fairly high price for highsec ore. My bet would be that miners proper continue to mine in 0.0 or WHs while at the same time mining bots and mission bots (that generated mins via tachs and 425mm rails) where mostly used in highsec and are now banned for good.

So there is a combination of logistical burden (zyd and mega are pricy and small) and the unwillingness to spend lots of time in highsec belts. Mining bot operators don't care much about getting ganked or bumped around. They simply write the loss off. Real players wont take that to often. If the risk in a WH to lose your hulk is smaller then in highsec it becomes a rather easy decision what to do.

Those plex fed self appointed miner haters finally seam to get what they where asking for.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#44 - 2012-11-28 01:30:03 UTC  |  Edited by: MIrple
Halin Damal wrote:
I only got one issue here:

MIrple wrote:

...there is an over abundance of ISK in circulation...


I don't think I pulled the statement out of context here. As the quoted statements above stands, one could come to the conclusion that this is a well known fact. And if it would be a fact, it means that a hard line between the scenario where there isn't an over abundance of ISK and where there is exists. This can't be a gradual transition, nor a fuzzy line.

Before this discussion can even continue, the magical number which defines the line between over abundance or not, needs to be established.


For this number to be established we would need to first know how much isk currently is in circulation in eve either in wallets or in escrow on the market. I bet the number that would come back would shock most people.

I found this from the old forum it is from 2010 but will give you an idea on a 24 hour period in eve.


CCP Chronotis


Posted - 2010.10.18 16:58:00 - [67]


Originally by: Loki NahatGreat feedback here,

Random sudo-off topic question:

Will there ever be stats published about the amount of tax the SSC generates from market sales/PI im/export/construction or concord structure maintenance fees or indeed empire corp tax?

Because (I think) these are never included in the Economic reports, would be (slightly) interesting to see the 'profit' said NPC organisations reap from the capsuleer economy. (alternative a rough figure would suffice)

/end random

Loki



A freebie, last 24hrs transaction stats for a selection of faucets and sinks - as you can see, Concord is a very generous organisation!



Trade Total

* Market Transaction 5,848,221,406,963

Faucets
* Bounty Prizes 876,039,478,466
* Agent Mission Reward 68,923,141,163
* Agent Mission Time Bonus 63,450,447,585
* Insurance Payouts 111,942,877,603

Sinks
* Sales Tax 6,227,911,218
* Brokers fee 6,733,818,276
* PI Construction Costs 7,575,185,000
* PI Import Tax 290,289,843
* PI Export Tax 3,355,153,925
* Insurance Cost 43,021,823,156
* Clone Activation 20,197,210,000
* Sovereignty Bill 59,332,000,000
* LP Store 135,343,150,000



Note - that is only a snapshot of some of the stats, others like NPC orders are not there and such. Consider this a freebie until a future QEN and no, we won't provide more or derail the blog!
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2012-11-28 01:37:16 UTC
Ooh what about a flat 1% monthly tax on all assets and liquid ISK, to be paid off the next month.
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#46 - 2012-11-28 01:38:56 UTC
I'd give Sov a much higher number. I'd say that number is based on base Sov with no I-Hub or I-Hub upgrades. Put in to account the amount of space that has been entrenched in the same alliances for 1 to 4 years, the Sov I-Hubs are easily 100 times that.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#47 - 2012-11-28 01:43:00 UTC
Skydell wrote:
I'd give Sov a much higher number. I'd say that number is based on base Sov with no I-Hub or I-Hub upgrades. Put in to account the amount of space that has been entrenched in the same alliances for 1 to 4 years, the Sov I-Hubs are easily 100 times that.


I would be interested to see the same snap shot from this month as well as we didn't have incursions or blue ribbons on here as faucets either.

But you also have to remember that PI would be a lower number as well because of the POCO. This was just to show the amount of isk that is created daily even if it is 2 years old.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2012-11-28 02:03:51 UTC
MIrple wrote:
Skydell wrote:
I'd give Sov a much higher number. I'd say that number is based on base Sov with no I-Hub or I-Hub upgrades. Put in to account the amount of space that has been entrenched in the same alliances for 1 to 4 years, the Sov I-Hubs are easily 100 times that.


I would be interested to see the same snap shot from this month as well as we didn't have incursions or blue ribbons on here as faucets either.

But you also have to remember that PI would be a lower number as well because of the POCO. This was just to show the amount of isk that is created daily even if it is 2 years old.

More relevant to raw isk injection would be correlation to economic effects. If injected isk increased 10 times yet had no real economic repercussions then injection would simply prove irrelevant for the time being.

But to inject some more recent numbers:

Item Source/Sink Monthly Amount
Wormhole blue books Source $10,430,000,000,000
Incursions Rewards Source $8,566,015,400,900
Mission Rewards Source $2,470,815,985,076
Misson Bonuses Source $2,346,410,541,970
Insurance Payouts Source $3,366,455,121,035
Insurance Costs Sink -$1,618,888,782,680
NPC Bounties Source $32,083,329,999,805
NPC Sell Orders Sink -$13,000,000,000,000
Transaction Taxes* Sink -$2,375,100,000,000
Broker Fees* Sink -$2,607,100,000,000
LP Store* Sink -$6,331,570,000,000
PI Construction* Sink -$627,850,000,000
Clones* Sink -$910,600,000,000
Office Rental* Sink -$488,650,000,000
War Fees* Sink -$149,350,000,000
Repair Bills* Sink -$287,100,000,000
PI NPC Taxes* Sink -$741,820,000,000
Sov Bills* Sink -$809,100,000,000
Contract Brokers Fee* Sink -$301,600,000,000
Contract Sales Tax* Sink -$324,800,000,000

Total $28,689,498,266,106


Anything with a * is based on a single day for February, everything else is a full month's data from Diagoras.
Riker Atros
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-11-28 02:27:47 UTC
WOW, my first post in almost a year, been a while since I played :) good to be back

and by only reading the first (OP) lol


Anyways,

I believe that there is an infinite amount of isk, because It is electronic, not real like IRL, but I don't think the way its being "handed out" really damages much, per say

however the last time I played or even looked at anything eve online was back in FEB 2012, I specifically remember PLEX were about 375-400 million ISK each, now they seem to be around 600 from what I saw in the last 5 mins I took to log in and check what I still had in inventory, MAN I made a boat load lol


since I bought them at 360 mil isk each if I sell for 2 times that I made a 100% PROFIT lmao



anyway I digress, that was merely from forgetting, (like the stock market, buy then forget [ to an extent].)




back to the post:

if this was like real life with having to work (mining missions etc) for isk but that isk was only supplied by other players I believe it would collapse, mostly due to the fact that there arn't enough people, in the world were you go to work, work, get paid by the company who also gets paid by the people buying their services,

you take your paycheck and buy something from say Wal-Mart that money goes to the workers, etc. and then those workers go out and buy that precious new iphone 5,,, you see how that happens,


however there are 6 billion some od persons in the world


as opposed to isay thousands of eve players? maybe a few hundred thousand


the process may sort of work, but maybe not, if the value of the isk was to go up, the items (such as plex) price would go down.

basically same process as inflation, but on such a small scale, the money needs to come from the government (in this case ccp)



see the government does print money, BUT that money (used to) be backed by the amount of assets we have, [gold silver etc]

now it is essentially backed by what's called a straw man, which means its backed by... YOU. your social security card, is like a deed, or a title, that is given on loan to other countries for cash, or credit. (the deficit.)

and that where this system would fail unless you had another country (another game) to borrow money back and forth from and to other countries(games) to loan it too, and charge interest etc.


just my thoughts



any thoughts on mine?
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#50 - 2012-11-28 02:54:24 UTC
Actually, it occured to me last night as I was looking at my new character and reviewing the recent run of 2 tutorial chains that ISK injection is a necessity.

Shocked ..I know.

But rerally, new players wouldn't have any ISK to spend outside of mining if it weren't for these missions, and later on, they would have limited means to make additional ISK to save, spend, or invest as they wanted. If there was no injection, many players wouldn't have any ISK at all, and thus wouldn't spend it, and also, probably wouldn't be interested in playing a game penniless, short of being forced to mine or do PI for microments of ISK.

So, that in consideration how would this affect other players? Really, it's very simple. The markets and economy would be entirely dependent on ISK overlords spending and paying other players so they could spend. T

he majority of trading would be completely cut off as players needing to spend ISK and not being able to spend it for lack of it stopped buying. These players are the majority. The players who have tons of ISK, don't spend it unless it is to make more ISK generally, and without low earnings buyers, they won't be able to make these trades.

EVE would quite literally go into an economic stall. The reason for that, is that with but a few exceptions, most non-producers in EVE rely entirely on Injections of ISK to generate income so they can afford to do what they want. People with ISK don't generally give it away, or pay people, or buy things off them; they hoard it, invest it, and try to accumulate more of it.

Reality is, most ISK in the economy ends up in their wallets eventually, and plenty of it stays there. EVEs hoarding capitalists are an ISK sink in and of themselves, because they often generate more than they can spend, and do everything in their power to avoid sharing unless it directly benefits them in some way. That usually means whatever it was spent on is destroyed in the process of making the hoarder rich or increasing their notoriety in some way.

Just like in real life, about 1% of the population makes money so fast, that they can't actually spend or even manage to invest what they have and it just continuously generates a massive over abundance of savings which leave the economy permanently. There is literally so much money in these peoples bank accounts, that they can't spend it, invest it, or even get rid of it.

Massive charitable donations to 3rd world Countries aside, presuming the government or banks, (or whatever), would even allow it. Which, they wouldn't. ..and yet they are continuously driven to continue investing and building and making more money faster than they or any ten others could possibly spend it. Really, you could probably divide their yearly income between a few hundred people and find that large a group couldn`t quite spend it fast enough either.

Nobody actually stated how much these people make, and this is just in Canada, and 1% of the population here.

So, considering that, I wonder how much ISK is continuously and permanently removed from the economy of EVE by default of not being able to spend it?
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