These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Happy Safe Fun Time!

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#181 - 2012-11-27 22:31:58 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
People should get themselves killed because they make, or are lured into making, stupid decisions... not because the aggression system is so obscure and full of loop holes your average player has difficulty making sense of it.


This, a thousand times.

And if they DIAF, it should be to superior tactics and smarter ship use, not to some corner case in the NPC AI.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#182 - 2012-11-27 22:35:00 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
On persisting the safety button setting: it's something we were hoping to get into this release but didn't quite have time.

Dear god, how many times do we really have to put up with this crap? It's the same story every SINGLE time. "We really want to put this feature in but we don't have time to do it quite right so we're just going to half-ass it and then fix it later."
This isn't the only Retribution feature you're adding that has this little mark on it. By the time you ask for player opinion on it it's already too late to make any changes and so we have to live with a shoddy product until you get around to fixing it. It's obvious that you're doing something very wrong when this happens.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Doomheim
#183 - 2012-11-27 22:39:38 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
On persisting the safety button setting: it's something we were hoping to get into this release but didn't quite have time.

Dear god, how many times do we really have to put up with this crap?


Yeah, having to cut things due to deadlines is only such an Eve thing. Roll
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#184 - 2012-11-27 22:41:38 UTC
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
On persisting the safety button setting: it's something we were hoping to get into this release but didn't quite have time.

Dear god, how many times do we really have to put up with this crap?


Yeah, having to cut things due to deadlines is only such an Eve thing. Roll

A deadline is no excuse to deliver a half-finished product.
I can see the lack of persistence becoming very irritating for highsec and lowsec pilots. Thankfully I'm not one of them, but this still reeks of Uni Inv all over again.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#185 - 2012-11-27 22:46:22 UTC
Rhavas wrote:
I get the newbie protection, fine. I love some of the logoffski block changes. But this is just flat-out poor design and takes something that works fine now and breaks it.

Don't release this feature without the ability to set safety state permanently.
Exactly.

Why are we hand-holding people? Why are we nannying their forgetfulness? Someone sets it to red and forgets that it's red, the game is there to protect them from their own lack of foresight?

What the hell is wrong with Greyscale? Seriously. Persistence isn't an oversight ... most of the game has persistence built-in ... it's no-brainer design. He made a conscious decision to have it reset every login.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#186 - 2012-11-27 22:50:37 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
On persisting the safety button setting: it's something we were hoping to get into this release but didn't quite have time.

Dear god, how many times do we really have to put up with this crap?


Yeah, having to cut things due to deadlines is only such an Eve thing. Roll

A deadline is no excuse to deliver a half-finished product.
I can see the lack of persistence becoming very irritating for highsec and lowsec pilots. Thankfully I'm not one of them, but this still reeks of Uni Inv all over again.


I see having to switch you're Safety Level everytime you log in as a MINOR annoyance.... This is not some gamebreaking thing (it would be if you had to do it every Session Change).

Most people will have a very specific state you put it in:

Green for the risk-adverse:
Yellow for morally grey players.
Red for Pirates. The only reason you set it to Red is so you can suicide gank people or shoot PODS in lowsec.

It's annoying to have to set it when you log in, but it's not some, OMG I can't handle this thing. It's easy to change, and all this bitching and whining over it is just ridiculous. Sure, let CCP know you want a user-definable default state... everyone does, and they know it... but quit acting like this is some dealbreaker issue that makes EvE unplayable...
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#187 - 2012-11-27 22:54:15 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
I see having to switch you're Safety Level everytime you log in as a MINOR annoyance.... This is not some gamebreaking thing (it would be if you had to do it every Session Change).

Most people will have a very specific state you put it in:

Green for the risk-adverse:
Yellow for morally grey players.
Red for Pirates. The only reason you set it to Red is so you can suicide gank people or shoot PODS in lowsec.

It's annoying to have to set it when you log in, but it's not some, OMG I can't handle this thing. It's easy to change, and all this bitching and whining over it is just ridiculous. Sure, let CCP know you want a user-definable default state... everyone does, and they know it... but quit acting like this is some dealbreaker issue that makes EvE unplayable...

I'm not, really. It's simply that this is kind of the last straw.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#188 - 2012-11-27 22:56:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Rhavas wrote:
I get the newbie protection, fine. I love some of the logoffski block changes. But this is just flat-out poor design and takes something that works fine now and breaks it.

Don't release this feature without the ability to set safety state permanently.
Exactly.

Why are we hand-holding people? Why are we nannying their forgetfulness? Someone sets it to red and forgets that it's red, the game is there to protect them from their own lack of foresight?

What the hell is wrong with Greyscale? Seriously. Persistence isn't an oversight ... most of the game has persistence built-in ... it's no-brainer design. He made a conscious decision to have it reset every login.


This conspiracy mongering is making it needlessly difficult to agree with what would otherwise be an entirely rational position, that CCP should have held off on the feature until they'd nailed persistence down, and rolled it out in a point release.

That said, I'm starting to wonder how many times a day some people log in. Yes, it's an additional Thing To Keep Track Of(TM), and annoying for that, but only until the patch lands.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#189 - 2012-11-27 22:59:51 UTC
Some Rando wrote:
Rhavas wrote:
Don't release this feature without the ability to set safety state permanently.

I completely agree. I can see the safety causing some real problems with the low-sec crowd. Just one more thing to pay attention to when you log-in. Roll

Can we maybe set the state before we undock? That would probably solve a lot of problems.

I'm not sure I follow you on that one my friend. Worse case scenario for the Low Sec crowd is that they might miss out on a pod kill if they forget. A green safety will in no way stop them from firing on someones ship.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2012-11-27 23:01:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Rhavas wrote:
I get the newbie protection, fine. I love some of the logoffski block changes. But this is just flat-out poor design and takes something that works fine now and breaks it.

Don't release this feature without the ability to set safety state permanently.
Exactly.

Why are we hand-holding people? Why are we nannying their forgetfulness? Someone sets it to red and forgets that it's red, the game is there to protect them from their own lack of foresight?

What the hell is wrong with Greyscale? Seriously. Persistence isn't an oversight ... most of the game has persistence built-in ... it's no-brainer design. He made a conscious decision to have it reset every login.


This conspiracy mongering is making it needlessly difficult to agree with what would otherwise be an entirely rational position, that CCP should have held off on the feature until they'd nailed persistence down, and rolled it out in a point release.

That said, I'm starting to wonder how many times a day some people log in. Yes, it's an additional Thing To Keep Track Of(TM), and annoying for that, but only until the patch lands.
They've built more complex persistence into their UI in less time.

This was a conscious decision. Nothing has been built into this game without persistence (where it was applicable.) They avoided persistence here by design. It was purposeful.

Greyscale never expects the responses he gets to his design decisions. He's always been kind of clueless in this regard (see his panels at Fanfests for examples).

I've no doubt this could have made it into the Dec 4 release. But as an experiment, they'll want to see how this plays out for a few weeks. Because the first major x.1 release of Retribution won't come until January.
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#191 - 2012-11-27 23:03:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Some Rando
Ranger 1 wrote:
I'm not sure I follow you on that one my friend. Worse case scenario for the Low Sec crowd is that they might miss out on a pod kill if they forget. A green safety will in no way stop them from firing on someones ship.

No, firing on a ship in low-sec still gains you a Suspect flag. You would need at least a Yellow light, if I'm reading this correct.

Just to expand on this for the FW folks: If you forget to at least go Yellow, you might end up trying to change your safety in the middle of a fight because it won't let you activate your modules.

In short, it's a very bad design decision.

CCP has no sense of humour.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#192 - 2012-11-27 23:10:29 UTC
Some Rando wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
I'm not sure I follow you on that one my friend. Worse case scenario for the Low Sec crowd is that they might miss out on a pod kill if they forget. A green safety will in no way stop them from firing on someones ship.

No, firing on a ship in low-sec still gains you a Suspect flag. You would need at least a Yellow light, if I'm reading this correct.

Just to expand on this for the FW folks: If you forget to at least go Yellow, you might end up trying to change your safety in the middle of a fight because it won't let you activate your modules.

In short, it's a very bad design decision.


Well, if you've been shot, you can return fire without changing them Blink

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Mika Takahoshi
Doomheim
#193 - 2012-11-27 23:16:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Mika Takahoshi
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Nothing has been built into this game without persistence (where it was applicable.)

The extent that Poetic lives in a fantasy world* never ceases to amaze me...

(* or is at least willing to lie about reality when it gets in the way of a good argument)
OutCast EG
Very Industrial Corp.
#194 - 2012-11-27 23:19:05 UTC
make safety button hideable and persistent. dont spoil this awesome devblog.
kthxbye.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#195 - 2012-11-27 23:19:28 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
I see having to switch you're Safety Level everytime you log in as a MINOR annoyance.... This is not some gamebreaking thing (it would be if you had to do it every Session Change).

Most people will have a very specific state you put it in:

Green for the risk-adverse:
Yellow for morally grey players.
Red for Pirates. The only reason you set it to Red is so you can suicide gank people or shoot PODS in lowsec.

It's annoying to have to set it when you log in, but it's not some, OMG I can't handle this thing. It's easy to change, and all this bitching and whining over it is just ridiculous. Sure, let CCP know you want a user-definable default state... everyone does, and they know it... but quit acting like this is some dealbreaker issue that makes EvE unplayable...

I'm not, really. It's simply that this is kind of the last straw.


Last straw??? I'm under the impression most of the upcoming changes with Retribution are pretty awesome. What are all these straws making up your discontent?

Bounty System?
Ship Changes?
Crimewatch Changes?
Skill Changes?
Improved NPC AI?

Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#196 - 2012-11-27 23:23:02 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Rhavas wrote:
I get the newbie protection, fine. I love some of the logoffski block changes. But this is just flat-out poor design and takes something that works fine now and breaks it.

Don't release this feature without the ability to set safety state permanently.
Exactly.

Why are we hand-holding people? Why are we nannying their forgetfulness? Someone sets it to red and forgets that it's red, the game is there to protect them from their own lack of foresight?

What the hell is wrong with Greyscale? Seriously. Persistence isn't an oversight ... most of the game has persistence built-in ... it's no-brainer design. He made a conscious decision to have it reset every login.

A checkbox with keepstate. That's all I want. This is going to be soooo annoying for the ninja community.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2012-11-27 23:26:08 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
They've built more complex persistence into their UI in less time.

This was a conscious decision. Nothing has been built into this game without persistence (where it was applicable.) They avoided persistence here by design. It was purposeful.

Greyscale never expects the responses he gets to his design decisions. He's always been kind of clueless in this regard (see his panels at Fanfests for examples).

I've no doubt this could have made it into the Dec 4 release. But as an experiment, they'll want to see how this plays out for a few weeks. Because the first major x.1 release of Retribution won't come until January.

So you are flat out saying Grayscale is lying?
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#198 - 2012-11-27 23:27:22 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Well, if you've been shot, you can return fire without changing them Blink

That's a good point, but when I'm out roaming I like to shoot first as much as possible and with targets (unwilling or not) as rare as they are in some places, well... maybe you can see what I'm getting at. Smile

CCP has no sense of humour.
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#199 - 2012-11-27 23:31:36 UTC
While I don't think it is the end of the world, it will very annoying for me to turn off the safety every time I log on.

Please change so I can turn it off forever.
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#200 - 2012-11-27 23:41:19 UTC
Rhavas wrote:
DJ P0N-3 wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
On persisting the safety button setting: it's something we were hoping to get into this release but didn't quite have time. I can't give any kind of estimate on if/when it will happen right now because we're in the final stages of release prep and our team is focusing on Retribution launch rather than anything else. Once we've shipped and tidied up after ourselves, we'll look at what we're working on next Smile


Cool. As long as it's on the radar, that's good...and will probably lead to amusing stories in the interim.

*prepares sticky note with DISABLE SAFETY WHEN PEWING IN LOWSEC for computer monitor*


I disagree. This should not be released in this condition.

I get the newbie protection, fine. I love some of the logoffski block changes. But this is just flat-out poor design and takes something that works fine now and breaks it.

Don't release this feature without the ability to set safety state permanently.


I'm saving my forum warrioring strength for beating this dead horse for the entire duration of Retribution.