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Dev Blog: Happy Safe Fun Time!

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Stags4
Caucasian Culture Club
#161 - 2012-11-27 21:00:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Stags4
iskflakes wrote:


Preventing botters from logging off is great, but the real losers here are supercap pilots. Under the current system if you're cloaked in a safe spot you can close the client to safely logoff. With the new system you need to decloak for 30 seconds in order to logoff, which is easily enough time to get probed and aggressed (alternatively e-warp then be probable for 60 seconds). The bad news is that this means we will be killing fewer supercaps this year, because people will simply use them less often (exactly what happened with the previous nerfs). Too bad.


Even under the current system when you logout your cloak shuts off btw, only you couldn't get flags at this point so you were pretty much safe.

Under the new system you can either:

Unsafe logout - At a safespot you logout. You ARE vulnerable to receiving flags while logging out. You have to ewarp, land, and wait 60 seconds before you are gone. You are at risk for 60+ seconds while not being able to dscan or even see people landing on grid. If someone does land to aggress you, you will not know it and can do nothing. You do not know if you survived logging out until you log in next or someone in-game tells you.

OR

Safe logout - At a safespot you safe logout. You still are vulnerable but only for 30 seconds, and you CAN dscan and watch yourself. If someone lands to aggress you then you can react or fight back if caught. When your timer is gone you are gone and you know you are safe. Its even been said in this thread that you can remain aligned while safe-logging. So if someone is landing on grid you just hit warp - which cancels the safe-log - saving your ship.

Between the two I think the choice will be easy imo.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#162 - 2012-11-27 21:06:24 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
iskflakes wrote:
Thanks Steve Ronuken and Dersen Lowery. It sounds like these changes make people even less safe, despite the introduction of the so-called "safe" logoff.


That's the explicit goal.

The old way of just logging off is now quite dangerous, in order to prevent logoffski tricks; the "safe log off" feature is a way to log off in space with some reasonable assurance of safety if you are totally clear of danger--i.e., if you aren't pulling a logoffski because a red just appeared in Local. It's basically only "safe" because you are at the keyboard until your ship disappears.

Note that NPC aggro counts as "danger," so if you log off in a sanctum your carrier will hang around until the NPC timer expires 5 minutes later. If you warp out of the sanctum to safe-log-off, you still have to wait out that timer.

If another player managed to tag you with a PVP flag, you have to wait out the 15 minute PVP timer to safe-log-off; if you just DC, your ship will hang out for 15 minutes after it was tagged, and that timer will be reset every time your ship gets shot at.



Preventing botters from logging off is great, but the real losers here are supercap pilots. Under the current system if you're cloaked in a safe spot you can close the client to safely logoff. With the new system you need to decloak for 30 seconds in order to logoff, which is easily enough time to get probed and aggressed (alternatively e-warp then be probable for 60 seconds). The bad news is that this means we will be killing fewer supercaps this year, because people will simply use them less often (exactly what happened with the previous nerfs). Too bad.



Don't all modules switch off when you log off/disconnect? Including the cloak?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#163 - 2012-11-27 21:10:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Stags4 wrote:
Under the new system you can either:

Unsafe logout - At a safespot you logout. You ARE vulnerable to receiving flags while logging out. You have to ewarp, land, and wait 60 seconds before you are gone. You are at risk for 60+ seconds while not being able to dscan or even see people landing on grid. You do not know if you survived logging out until you log in next or someone in-game tells you.

OR

Safe logout - At a safespot you safe logout. You still are vulnerable but only for 30 seconds, and you CAN dscan and watch yourself. When your timer is gone you are gone and you know you are safe.

So between the two I think the choice will be easy imo.


Ah, I forgot: You can't have any modules running, but your ship's propulsion system isn't a module. So you can be aligned at full speed to a safe spot and do a safe logoff. Spam D-scan, and if something's coming for you, you can instawarp to the safe. That cancels log off, of course, but it leaves your would-be attacker in the middle of nowhere while you consider your options.

I can't possibly speak from experience, but that might be the supercap pilot's tactic of choice.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#164 - 2012-11-27 21:12:04 UTC
Shovi Chen-Shi wrote:
And what happens if i just quit the game or close the window game? Does my ship get removed from space after a while or instantly ( i doubt it) ? And if it's after a while what is the timer?


Your ship will stay in space either 1 minute (assuming you have no timers), up to 5 minutes if you have a NPC timer, up to 15 minutes if you have a PvP timer, or indefinitely if someone finds your ship and starts shooting it before it despawns...
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#165 - 2012-11-27 21:14:48 UTC
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:
I hope that safety is remembered between sessions.

That is going to get VERY VERY ANNOYING.

If I have to log in, undock, TURN OFF a safety and then LOCK + Activate a Warp Disruptor on a target that just undocked from my station because I haven't undocked in my current session and I fail to do any one of the steps because of this stupid safety switch I'm going to be very annoyed.

Remember the setting between seesions.


From Page 3

CCP Greyscale wrote:
Eli Green wrote:
Jing Xin wrote:
I hope safety setting is persistent through docking, jumping, logging off. If it constantly defaults to green, some people will be seriously annoyed.

currently unless it has changed since last week it is not persistant Sad


Should be persisted per session, but not currently between sessions (see above). Ie, so long as you stay logged in, it stays the same; log out and it goes back to default.


Just saw this... that is REALLY obnoxious. I think when we turn the safetys off, they should stay off. A while ago the UI team set out to re-do the inventory system to make it less of a click-fest. What happened to that principal? So every damn time I log in the first thing I have to do is turn my safetys off? That's a lot of unnecessary clicking CCP! How hard would it be to put in a checkbox so we can allow our safety state to persist? Hell even most of the security notifications could be turned off before the change. Sad

CCP - will you look into giving us the option to let our chosen safety level persist?

Signatures should be used responsibly...
iskflakes
#166 - 2012-11-27 21:18:38 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:


Ah, I forgot: You can't have any modules running, but your ship's propulsion system isn't a module. So you can be aligned at full speed to a safe spot and do a safe logoff. Spam D-scan, and if something's coming for you, you can instawarp to the safe. That cancels log off, of course, but it leaves your would-be attacker in the middle of nowhere while you consider your options.

I can't possibly speak from experience, but that might be the supercap pilot's tactic of choice.


Right, safe log-off will be the safest way to log-off with the new system. My original point is that when combined with the crimewatch changes it's less safe than the current system for certain ship types. Perhaps CCP could add a workaround: Allow people with no flags who are cloaked to logoff instantly, or within 15-20 seconds rather than 30?

-
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#167 - 2012-11-27 21:21:41 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
I've seen people lobbying for the timer to be reduced to 20 seconds for that reason. Supercaps aren't my bailiwick, but I imagine that with something that huge, it's kind of hard to strike a balance between "always safe log off" and "always dead supercap."


Yeah it's a difficult balancing act for CCP. Every time they nerf supers it leads to fewer super deaths and people complain. Every time they buff them (well ok, It's never happened) people complain that 35 billion shouldn't make you as powerful as 20 drakes. But making it 20 seconds seems like a good trade-off to me, in my opinion if you're cloaked in a safe spot you should be able to log off completely safely. That applies to all ships.


Trust me... Supercarriers used to be known as motherships and were NOT very useful. Then CCP buffed them (and titans) to be uberwtfpwnmobiles, and they proliferated like crazy... That's what spawned the series of nerfs to Supercaps over the last two years.

I think 20 seconds is a good compromise.

In truth, if you are in a safe spot, with no NPC/PvP/Weapons timers, why do you need a logoff timer at all? If it was under 10 seconds, I'm sure it could be abused somehow, but I don't think it should be long enough for someone to run a probe scan, get a result, warp to you and aggress you.
Serious Desire
Annoyance.
Darwinism.
#168 - 2012-11-27 21:22:28 UTC
oh, i forgot. It's still stupid.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#169 - 2012-11-27 21:28:25 UTC
AFAIK, modules do not stop running when you log off, until your ship successfully emergency warps or just times out and despawns--this is how an accidentally DC'd mission runner's ship can survive until he logs back in again. If the active tank was running at the time of DC, it keeps running until the ship caps out.

If that's true, the new "safe log off" is somewhat less safe than the old "cloak up and log off" tactic. But again, that's a design goal. If it ends up leading to a lot of dormant supercaps, you can petition CCP to shorten the timer to 20 seconds and/or allow cloaks and they'll probably make the change. They want more dead supers, after all.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#170 - 2012-11-27 21:34:00 UTC
Serious Desire wrote:
WORST FEATURE EV-AH.

I haven't been playing this game because it's easy. I could care less about all the "new" players that are stupid. Pain is a very good teacher. Everyone that's played this game for a year or longer has learned not to shoot people in high sec. If they haven't then they don't shoot people anyway so who cares.

Your doing these thing for the nubbins. This is a game. You make mistakes and get blown up. Its how you get EXPERIENCE that other people are looking for to fly with.

WHY DUMB THIS WONDERFUL GAME DOWN FURTHER? Instead of wasting VALUABLE development time on a completely STUPID feature that's only going to be broken when you release it, why not FIX all the crap that people have been screaming about? These new features will be broken or will break something else upon release. So then, not only have you wasted the Dev time coming up with these useless features, now you have to use MORE Dev time fixing it afterwards. What a waste.

Actually, the changes solve a great many problems with a horrible and overly complex system. The convoluted coding currently in place causes no end of technical headaches for the dev team, to no good purpose.

People should get themselves killed because they make, or are lured into making, stupid decisions... not because the aggression system is so obscure and full of loop holes your average player has difficulty making sense of it.

I've never been a fan of letting bad game mechanics do my fighting for me. Blink

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
iskflakes
#171 - 2012-11-27 21:34:15 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
I think 20 seconds is a good compromise.

In truth, if you are in a safe spot, with no NPC/PvP/Weapons timers, why do you need a logoff timer at all? If it was under 10 seconds, I'm sure it could be abused somehow, but I don't think it should be long enough for someone to run a probe scan, get a result, warp to you and aggress you.


Agreed. If you're in a safe spot cloaked you're clearly not logging off to avoid combat, so a reduced timer seems appropriate. The probing, warping and aggression can be done in 20-30 seconds with the right setup.

-
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#172 - 2012-11-27 21:39:03 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
AFAIK, modules do not stop running when you log off, until your ship successfully emergency warps or just times out and despawns--this is how an accidentally DC'd mission runner's ship can survive until he logs back in again. If the active tank was running at the time of DC, it keeps running until the ship caps out.

If that's true, the new "safe log off" is somewhat less safe than the old "cloak up and log off" tactic. But again, that's a design goal. If it ends up leading to a lot of dormant supercaps, you can petition CCP to shorten the timer to 20 seconds and/or allow cloaks and they'll probably make the change. They want more dead supers, after all.


Dersen, I could be wrong but I believe all modules shut off after you disconnect... including cloak or repair modules.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#173 - 2012-11-27 21:40:31 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Serious Desire wrote:
WORST FEATURE EV-AH.

I haven't been playing this game because it's easy. I could care less about all the "new" players that are stupid. Pain is a very good teacher. Everyone that's played this game for a year or longer has learned not to shoot people in high sec. If they haven't then they don't shoot people anyway so who cares.

Your doing these thing for the nubbins. This is a game. You make mistakes and get blown up. Its how you get EXPERIENCE that other people are looking for to fly with.

WHY DUMB THIS WONDERFUL GAME DOWN FURTHER? Instead of wasting VALUABLE development time on a completely STUPID feature that's only going to be broken when you release it, why not FIX all the crap that people have been screaming about? These new features will be broken or will break something else upon release. So then, not only have you wasted the Dev time coming up with these useless features, now you have to use MORE Dev time fixing it afterwards. What a waste.

Actually, the changes solve a great many problems with a horrible and overly complex system. The convoluted coding currently in place causes no end of technical headaches for the dev team, to no good purpose.

People should get themselves killed because they make, or are lured into making, stupid decisions... not because the aggression system is so obscure and full of loop holes your average player has difficulty making sense of it.

I've never been a fan of letting bad game mechanics do my fighting for me. Blink


New noob trolling technique: "When you're shooting someone in hisec, set the dot to green if it's a corpmate, orange if it's a -5, and red for a -10. Trust me."
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#174 - 2012-11-27 21:51:21 UTC
On persisting the safety button setting: it's something we were hoping to get into this release but didn't quite have time. I can't give any kind of estimate on if/when it will happen right now because we're in the final stages of release prep and our team is focusing on Retribution launch rather than anything else. Once we've shipped and tidied up after ourselves, we'll look at what we're working on next Smile

Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
I would imagine that having the safety system in "green safe mode" just wouldn't do anything in WH or null space since you don't pick up flags for doing anything there anyway. So if you live in null or WH 100% of the time you would never need to turn it off.


Yup, you can't get suspect/criminal flags in nullsec/w-space, so the button does nothing. We talked about hiding it totally in those areas, but that causes problems when you're jumping back into empire space and want to pre-disable safeties.

Vitamin B12 wrote:
That seems like dirty hardcoding in the background. So after logging off "safely" i get ported to a 1M KM distant space.

EDIT: dont make the font yellow... Cry


Actually it's an explicit design decision. We always emergency-warp you back to the point you logged off because a) it looks ugly when we just "spawn" ships onto busy locations and b) the warp-time slightly de-fangs logon traps by letting you d-scan them on approach.

Plaude Pollard wrote:
Oh god... For a second I actually feared that you had added a way to let people choose not to be in danger at the expense of not being able to shoot at others... At least I was greatly mistaken, and for that, I am grateful. Looks like this is going to be a very nice change. No more annoying pop-ups in Empire-space. I like that.


Heh.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
What about putting in a practical "Safe log off button" that does what's needed to perform the safe log off? IE it turns off modules, stops the ships and stops whatever blocks the safe log off process and only then it initiates the safe log off?

It'd be useful in some of my ships where I'd have to go click 6-7 buttons and that's :effort:


We have a design for this but it didn't fit into this release; see above for why we can't discuss if/when this will be implemented right now.

Harbingour wrote:

Will these safety locks also prevent logistics from repping pilots with <-5.0 faction status so that they won't get targeted by the faction police? The bad faction aggrro is one othe last 'silent aggro' problems that incursioners still run into. No warning for bad faction status is definely not 100% the logi's fault. It is pretty silly to see faction police pop in your site & attack logi's with no warning at all Blink


I don't *think* so; hopefully Masterplan will be back this way in a bit to confirm/deny.

iskflakes wrote:

Preventing botters from logging off is great, but the real losers here are supercap pilots. Under the current system if you're cloaked in a safe spot you can close the client to safely logoff. With the new system you need to decloak for 30 seconds in order to logoff, which is easily enough time to get probed and aggressed (alternatively e-warp then be probable for 60 seconds). The bad news is that this means we will be killing fewer supercaps this year, because people will simply use them less often (exactly what happened with the previous nerfs). Too bad.


Old logout system isn't going anywhere, so nobody's losing out. If you don't want to use "safe logoff", then "logoff", "quit", ctrl-Q, or switching off your computer/router will all still work as they currently do.

Moraguth wrote:
Will these changes still take into account if you're within a shield bubble (and not warp you away) like before?

you didn't say you were changing it, so I think your answer is that everything will be the same, but I still feel the need to ask.


Yup, should do.

Tarvos Telesto wrote:
CCP i got one question about safe logofski, let imagine, im on hull, like 5 structure left (no agresion, no actives modules etc), my safe countdown show me 0.00 sec ( this mean i can exit form client or log off, what happens if after 0.1sec after i log off, somone lock my ship and fire? i lose my ship? this safe countdown is perfect and working even in this wired situation? also when player see 0.00 sec noboby can lock my ship?


You actually get to watch your ship disappear from space while the client is still open. I can't speak for sure about race conditions *right* on the border because :raceconditions:, but you will at least be able to watch yourself die, I believe.
iskflakes
#175 - 2012-11-27 22:01:10 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Old logout system isn't going anywhere, so nobody's losing out. If you don't want to use "safe logoff", then "logoff", "quit", ctrl-Q, or switching off your computer/router will all still work as they currently do.


The CrimeWatch changes are making the old logoff system more dangerous (as you can now be aggressed even after you logoff without any flags). Overall logging off from a safespot while cloaked will be more dangerous after 4th Dec (Unless I've misunderstood something).

-
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#176 - 2012-11-27 22:05:17 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
On persisting the safety button setting: it's something we were hoping to get into this release but didn't quite have time. I can't give any kind of estimate on if/when it will happen right now because we're in the final stages of release prep and our team is focusing on Retribution launch rather than anything else. Once we've shipped and tidied up after ourselves, we'll look at what we're working on next Smile


Cool. As long as it's on the radar, that's good...and will probably lead to amusing stories in the interim.

*prepares sticky note with DISABLE SAFETY WHEN PEWING IN LOWSEC for computer monitor*
Silath Slyver Silverpine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#177 - 2012-11-27 22:08:59 UTC
The safety idea seems clever, and logical. Hopefully it will prevent new players from accidentally getting themselves blown up by Concord.

The safe log off thing, though, makes me feel icky, and I'm not sure why.
Rhavas
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#178 - 2012-11-27 22:16:47 UTC
DJ P0N-3 wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
On persisting the safety button setting: it's something we were hoping to get into this release but didn't quite have time. I can't give any kind of estimate on if/when it will happen right now because we're in the final stages of release prep and our team is focusing on Retribution launch rather than anything else. Once we've shipped and tidied up after ourselves, we'll look at what we're working on next Smile


Cool. As long as it's on the radar, that's good...and will probably lead to amusing stories in the interim.

*prepares sticky note with DISABLE SAFETY WHEN PEWING IN LOWSEC for computer monitor*


I disagree. This should not be released in this condition.

I get the newbie protection, fine. I love some of the logoffski block changes. But this is just flat-out poor design and takes something that works fine now and breaks it.

Don't release this feature without the ability to set safety state permanently.

Author of Interstellar Privateer Shattered Planets, Wormholes and Game Commentary
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#179 - 2012-11-27 22:26:59 UTC
Rhavas wrote:
DJ P0N-3 wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
On persisting the safety button setting: it's something we were hoping to get into this release but didn't quite have time. I can't give any kind of estimate on if/when it will happen right now because we're in the final stages of release prep and our team is focusing on Retribution launch rather than anything else. Once we've shipped and tidied up after ourselves, we'll look at what we're working on next Smile


Cool. As long as it's on the radar, that's good...and will probably lead to amusing stories in the interim.

*prepares sticky note with DISABLE SAFETY WHEN PEWING IN LOWSEC for computer monitor*


I disagree. This should not be released in this condition.

I get the newbie protection, fine. I love some of the logoffski block changes. But this is just flat-out poor design and takes something that works fine now and breaks it.

Don't release this feature without the ability to set safety state permanently.

It would have been a perfectly valid design choice to simply leave it the way it will be. Making your guns hot (disabling the safety) is not an unreasonable step in any way, much less "broken".

That being said I am glad that eventually it will be a persistant state.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#180 - 2012-11-27 22:27:23 UTC
Rhavas wrote:
Don't release this feature without the ability to set safety state permanently.

I completely agree. I can see the safety causing some real problems with the low-sec crowd. Just one more thing to pay attention to when you log-in. Roll

Can we maybe set the state before we undock? That would probably solve a lot of problems.

CCP has no sense of humour.