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** HILMAR - Remove the CSM Now...**

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#81 - 2011-10-21 12:49:21 UTC
Jada Maroo wrote:
Andski wrote:

"The supercap nerf is a good change but the goons support it because IT BENEFITS THEM so it shouldn't be changed!!!!"

i love your logic



Not what I said, but people with weak arguments often have to put words into their opponents mouths to make a point so I'll overlook it.

Let's use a real world example: nuclear weapons. And before you start your inevitable whine about comparisons to the real world, it's called an analogy. Look it up in the dictionary.

Country A and country B both have nuclear weapons. The traditional army of country A is twice as large as country B. Country A manages to convince country B that both sides would be better off if all nuclear weapons were destroyed. And so they sign a treaty and abolish all their nuclear weapons. Now, with the equalizer gone, who is at a massive numerical advantage? Country A.


yes, that is an analogy, but a terrible one

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#82 - 2011-10-21 12:53:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
TBH this is turning into an Anti-goon speech.



This should have nothing to do with the Goons, this is about CCP and how they run business. Goons are good for the game in all reality, a bias CSM is not.

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Mr R4nd0m
Doomheim
#83 - 2011-10-21 12:55:05 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
TBH this is turning into an Anti-goon speech.



This should have nothing to do with the Goons, this is about CCP and how they run business. Goons are good for the game in all reality, bias CSM is not.


Sadly its a goon making into a anti goon speech.. but yes please stay on topic guys..
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#84 - 2011-10-21 12:56:01 UTC
Gilentajsa wrote:
White Tree wrote:
The Mittani wrote:
As I relaxed in the aftermath of a time-dilated fight where supercaps didn't rule the day and lag didn't determine the outcome, I browsed a rack of podkills with implants, spun my recently rebalanced hybrid-gunned ship, and typed off a poorly-thought-out ragepost about how the CSM was irrelevant, because I'm literally a big babby who has no idea what he's talking about.

I then went off to enjoy a bunch of new spaceship-related content that CCP produced after they finally acknowledged that focusing on FiS instead of WiS was the right thing to do!


[quote=The Mittani]As I relaxed in the aftermath of a time-dilated fight where supercaps didn't rule the day and lag didn't determine the outcome, I browsed a rack of podkills with implants, spun my recently rebalanced hybrid-gunned ship, and typed off a poorly-thought-out ragepost about how the CSM was irrelevant, because I'm literally a big babby who has no idea what he's talking about.

I then went off to enjoy a bunch of new spaceship-related content that CCP produced after they finally acknowledged that focusing on FiS instead of WiS was the right thing to do!



What was that you said?

I couldn't hear you through the **** in your mouth.




While I wouldn't be quite so crass as the poster above me. This does actually illustrate a problem with this CSM. Mittani's personality is quite dominant in that group and it has become apparent its a case of mr Mittani organgrinder and his half dozen monkeys. It does damage the balance of the CSM when its quite obvious only one person is calling the shots and the rest are just acting like beta followers rather than presenting individual and independent viewpoints.


The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2011-10-21 12:56:25 UTC
Karadion wrote:

1) They do that in their own blogging efforts, tentonhammer, k.com, and other various sites. You're just not looking hard enough.
2) They did that. The Empire pubbies just didn't care
3) Again they did implement that function which I was able to vote 1 vote per account that I owned.
4) They do that job because they represent the people who voted for their platform. Are they supposed to be an empty slate platform going "Vote for me, I got nothing."
5) They consistently do that especially censuring the minutes which got them in trouble.

Hiding under a rock have you?


1) is not EVEonline.com
2) They obviously didn't do that
3) That function needs to be streamlined into eveonline.com forums better
4) At least 5 CSm members got in from just voting bloc power. I voted for Whitetree because he was in TEST the same time i was. He also said he was pushing hard for a hybrid/Gallente buff, i am really glad that has been won Big smile
5) Like i said, there is a lot to discuss that is not locked up under the NDA lock and key. New ideas the CSM members has. Permissable ideas to be discussed (eg new capital ship ideas etc)

Transparacy. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't mind if Brother Mittens is pushing hard to nerf ABC in low end WHs, as long as either his idea is supported by the players, or the players pushed that idea to him.

I don't want CSM members pushign their own agenda, or something that they have not discussed at all with anyone who has access to eveonline.com. I do not want to go view a short story at a third party website when it directly relates to EVE development.

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#86 - 2011-10-21 13:01:41 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
So much of CCP's RL ISK comes from empire and "pubbie's"
If CCP wants to be successful they will have to cater to these people as well.
…so why aren't they interested enough to make sure they find a representative on the CSM?
Gilentajsa wrote:
Why not make it so that; unless you are a trial, when election time rolls around you need to cast a ballot to actually get past the character selection screen? I think that would get a more evenly distributed pool of voters that I'm doubting the goons could effectively combat with ballot stuffing.
Because those who aren't interested in voting aren't interested in voting, and them adding a statistically even amount of votes onto everyone's numbers will lead to the same representation.

…or well, to be honest, it will lead to more representation for the larger parties, since they can blitz their name out there and win votes by name recognition alone.
Mr R4nd0m wrote:
Im sorry but this game DOES NOT need people like Goons ruinng the game anymore. Its killing eve. Simple Fact.
What do you base this “fact” on? Where's the proof?

Oh, and I noticed that allegation here to so let's toss that one in here as well: how is the CSM corrupt?
Karadion
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#87 - 2011-10-21 13:02:07 UTC
Headerman wrote:
Karadion wrote:

1) They do that in their own blogging efforts, tentonhammer, k.com, and other various sites. You're just not looking hard enough.
2) They did that. The Empire pubbies just didn't care
3) Again they did implement that function which I was able to vote 1 vote per account that I owned.
4) They do that job because they represent the people who voted for their platform. Are they supposed to be an empty slate platform going "Vote for me, I got nothing."
5) They consistently do that especially censuring the minutes which got them in trouble.

Hiding under a rock have you?


1) is not EVEonline.com
2) They obviously didn't do that
3) That function needs to be streamlined into eveonline.com forums better
4) At least 5 CSm members got in from just voting bloc power. I voted for Whitetree because he was in TEST the same time i was. He also said he was pushing hard for a hybrid/Gallente buff, i am really glad that has been won Big smile
5) Like i said, there is a lot to discuss that is not locked up under the NDA lock and key. New ideas the CSM members has. Permissable ideas to be discussed (eg new capital ship ideas etc)

Transparacy. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't mind if Brother Mittens is pushing hard to nerf ABC in low end WHs, as long as either his idea is supported by the players, or the players pushed that idea to him.

I don't want CSM members pushign their own agenda, or something that they have not discussed at all with anyone who has access to eveonline.com. I do not want to go view a short story at a third party website when it directly relates to EVE development.

1) Ohh wahhh, you're selectively cherry picking where you want them to post. They do their job, you just want them to bend over backwards and give you what they want. Until they're told to post on CCP's website, this is a CCP oversight. They do blog about their efforts consistently.
2) Yes they do. That's why it's a CSM team and they raise issues that are most important to them and the people that their people voted for them on their platform
3) It was streamlined into the freaking account when you log on. "Do you want to vote in the CSM? Click here" in a propaganda advertisement similar to any article they deem posting. Because Empire pubbies dismisses it, it's not CCP's fault or is it the CSM's team for ignoring the election.
5) Again NDA will always apply and that's the unfortunate process of any development in commercial products. If you want CCP to change their way, become a minority or majority controller of the company.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#88 - 2011-10-21 13:03:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
I have said this before, I want my interests and the interests of my friends addressed.
I want representatives who recognize my play style and the playing style of people like me.


The current CSM, and most of the CSM's before that, are not giving me that "feeling". They are elected representatives that should be representing all of EVE online, from mining in empire to null sec. Their primary concern should be game balancing in every aspect of the game...


If they can't do that then there is no point in having them. Ugh




At the very least we could use an Empire CSM, Low Sec CSM and Null Sec CSM (or something). What we have now can only steer CCP in the wrong direction, and I believe has. Purposefully or not, It doesn't really matter, because a null sec only CSM cannot fulfill the above requirements. These are important requirements.


No ones "idea" of how the game should be played should take precedence over anyone else's.
CSM's must be fair, neutral and courteous in order to fulfill their intended roll.
Else they are useless to everyone.

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Don Solette
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2011-10-21 13:07:15 UTC
As a new player I don't like to give my feedback, as it is constantly shot down by vets who apparently like the game the way it is. Original poster is dead on the money here. As much as I like this game, there are things I think that could and should be changed, in particular griefing activities in high-sec, and the ineptitude of concord. However, I can't say these without being called names by all the so called vets out there, likely the ones doing these kinds of activities.

Oh and if I don't like it? HTFU right?. See where the disconnect is? There's no middle ground of discussion, there's no discussion of pros and cons and why or why not this or that should work.. it immediately degenerates into name calling.

As a new player, I don't feel my voice is heard at all, actually I don't think the voice of anyone trying to improve hi-sec in general is heard at all. The mentality in regards to hi-sec is 'if you don't like it, leave'. But I want to like Eve, I'd like to play this game for years to come.

I'm pretty torn currently when it comes to this game as to whether or not it's worth it to me to keep playing. There are so many players out there to ruin your experience and at the end of the day, did I have fun today or didn't I? Will I be back tomorrow? I have 2 subs which isn't much I know, but surely my 2 subs are just as important as the next guy's?

Keep hearing lip service that Eve is our game, beginning to understand that's just talk. I can tell you what I do know about this game. Anyone can do anything they want to you in high-sec and if you don't have a big alliance, or a bigger ship, you have to just suck it up and apparently rename that bad experience to 'fun' just because people say that's the way it should be.
Karadion
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#90 - 2011-10-21 13:07:20 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
I have said this before, I want my interests and the interests of my friends addressed.
I want representatives who recognize my play style and the playing style of people like me.

The current CSM, and most of the CSM's before that, are not giving me that "feeling". They are elected representatives that should be representing all of EVE online, from mining in empire to null sec. Their primary concern should be game balancing in every aspect of the game...

If they can't do that then there is no point in having them. Ugh

At the very least we could use an Empire CSM, Low Sec CSM and Null Sec CSM (or something). What we have now can only steer CCP in the wrong direction, and I believe has. Purposefully or not, It doesn't really matter, because a null sec only CSM cannot fulfill the above requirements. These are important requirements.

No ones "idea" of how the game should be played should take precedence over anyone else's.
CSM's must be fair, neutral and courteous in order to fulfill their intended roll.
Else they are useless to everyone.
They don't give you that warm feeling inside because they're not fighting to buff your mission bots / isk return. You got Trebor and that other person what's his name? Whatever. The current CSM got voted because they presented their platforms they believe in and also gained the favor of their own alliances because they share similar feelings.

PS: Use enter's less. Makes you look like you are skilled in grammar.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#91 - 2011-10-21 13:09:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Karadion wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
I have said this before, I want my interests and the interests of my friends addressed.
I want representatives who recognize my play style and the playing style of people like me.

The current CSM, and most of the CSM's before that, are not giving me that "feeling". They are elected representatives that should be representing all of EVE online, from mining in empire to null sec. Their primary concern should be game balancing in every aspect of the game...

If they can't do that then there is no point in having them. Ugh

At the very least we could use an Empire CSM, Low Sec CSM and Null Sec CSM (or something). What we have now can only steer CCP in the wrong direction, and I believe has. Purposefully or not, It doesn't really matter, because a null sec only CSM cannot fulfill the above requirements. These are important requirements.

No ones "idea" of how the game should be played should take precedence over anyone else's.
CSM's must be fair, neutral and courteous in order to fulfill their intended roll.
Else they are useless to everyone.
They don't give you that warm feeling inside because they're not fighting to buff your mission bots / isk return. You got Trebor and that other person what's his name? Whatever. The current CSM got voted because they presented their platforms they believe in and also gained the favor of their own alliances because they share similar feelings.

PS: Use enter's less. Makes you look like you are skilled in grammar.



You obviously do not know what my play style is.
& are not taking the time to consider it, or how it may be just as valid as yours.




Even more then that the post made by Don Solette above is relevant to CCP's interests, and should thus be represented by the CSM's as well, without bias.

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Red Templar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2011-10-21 13:11:32 UTC
When CSM was weak, fractured and couldnt do ****, that was ok. Because CSM was useless tool, that didnt actualy do good for anyone, but it actualy didnt do any bad stuff for anyone either. So no one cared about them. Seriously, let them play some councel or whatever.

When CSM actually acquired some fracture of power, was able to influence CCP, represent their voters, do some good for game itself. Thats is exactly the right time to whine and cry. Because now they actualy have power. And its NOT yours to control. Oh poor babies :(

The amount of unhappy "citizens" show me exactly how much work CSM does and how efficient they are.
If everyone were happy, that means they do nada.

[b]For Love. For Peace. For Honor.

For None of the Above.

For Pony![/b]
T-Jay Charante
Black Sun Industry and Research
#93 - 2011-10-21 13:13:59 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
I have said this before, I want my interests and the interests of my friends addressed.
I want representatives who recognize my play style and the playing style of people like me.


The current CSM, and most of the CSM's before that, are not giving me that "feeling". They are elected representatives that should be representing all of EVE online, from mining in empire to null sec. Their primary concern should be game balancing in every aspect of the game...


If they can't do that then there is no point in having them. Ugh




At the very least we could use an Empire CSM, Low Sec CSM and Null Sec CSM (or something). What we have now can only steer CCP in the wrong direction, and I believe has. Purposefully or not, It doesn't really matter, because a null sec only CSM cannot fulfill the above requirements. These are important requirements.


No ones "idea" of how the game should be played should take precedence over anyone else's.
CSM's must be fair, neutral and courteous in order to fulfill their intended roll.
Else they are useless to everyone.


This post shouldn't go unnoticed.
Guy Grand
Doomheim
#94 - 2011-10-21 13:16:13 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
I have said this before, I want my interests and the interests of my friends addressed.


This makes you different then the current CSM how?

Eternum Praetorian wrote:
TBH this is turning into an Anti-goon speech.


No, I'm pretty sure goons being mentioned in the second sentence of the OP makes this thread an anti-goon speech.


Eternum Praetorian wrote:
CSM's must be fair, neutral and courteous in order to fulfill their intended roll.
Else they are useless to everyone.


Are you new to the world as well as this game?
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#95 - 2011-10-21 13:17:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Guy Grand wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
I have said this before, I want my interests and the interests of my friends addressed.

This makes you different then the current CSM how?



They are elected to represent people like me.
I am not elected to represent myself am I?



[quote]CSM's must be fair, neutral and courteous in order to fulfill their intended roll.
Else they are useless to everyone.

Are you new to the world as well as this game?



Are you new to a real-life working business model for a Video game?

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#96 - 2011-10-21 13:17:58 UTC
Don Solette wrote:
As a new player I don't like to give my feedback, as it is constantly shot down by vets who apparently like the game the way it is. Original poster is dead on the money here. As much as I like this game, there are things I think that could and should be changed, in particular griefing activities in high-sec, and the ineptitude of concord.[/quote[The problem here is that you're too new to the game to fully get the grasp of what it is you're asking for.

You're doing the equivalent of wanting to turn CS into Harvest Moon. If you want to harvest carrots, this is simply not the game for you.
Quote:
Oh and if I don't like it? HTFU right?
No. If you don't like it, then too bad. Maybe you just picked the wrong game. If you absolutely want to play EVE, then go ahead and play EVE — if you want to turn EVE into something that is not EVE, then a better idea would be to play somehting that is not EVE.
Quote:
There's no middle ground of discussion, there's no discussion of pros and cons and why or why not this or that should work.. it immediately degenerates into name calling.
…because the discussion has been had for ages and nothing new is ever brought to the table. Oh, and don't think that “your side” is particularly willing to discuss either — in fact, you just did the same thing by immediately calling legitimate gameplay “griefing”.

Trust me, having been on the receiving end of much name calling when I try to generate the kind of discussions you want to see by asking for the pros and cons of some (not at all) new proposal, I can tell you with some certainty that blaming that turn of the discussion on the vets is… well… less informed.
[quote]As a new player, I don't feel my voice is heard at all, actually I don't think the voice of anyone trying to improve hi-sec in general is heard at all. The mentality in regards to hi-sec is 'if you don't like it, leave'. But I want to like Eve, I'd like to play this game for years to come.
…and the problem here is that most of what's being proposed in the name of “improving highsec” usually comes in the form of “ruin core gameplay”. That's why the name-calling starts: because the premise for most such changes almost always turn out to be something that is inherently incompatible with the game as a whole.
Karadion
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#97 - 2011-10-21 13:18:33 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Guy Grand wrote:
[quote=Eternum Praetorian]I have said this before, I want my interests and the interests of my friends addressed.

This makes you different then the current CSM how?



They are elected to represent people like me.
I am not elected to represent myself am I?
Sure you can. Fly to Iceland, attend the CCP event every year or how often they hold it and speak your opinion of how EVE IS REAL to you.
Guy Grand
Doomheim
#98 - 2011-10-21 13:19:13 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Guy Grand wrote:
[quote=Eternum Praetorian]I have said this before, I want my interests and the interests of my friends addressed.

This makes you different then the current CSM how?



They are elected to represent people like me.
I am not elected to represent myself am I?


Your answer completely sidesteps my point. You fail completely to address the others. Try again.
Nehmen Geld
#99 - 2011-10-21 13:22:50 UTC
Mr R4nd0m wrote:
Too true, the CSM is all wrong at the moment. The problem is letting any goons in there, especially letting Mittani in as chair, and vile rat and other nullsec powermad idiots, big big mistake.


I figure that if you don't like a candidate then you should lobby against them. If, as is claimed elsewhere on this thread, only 10-15% of players actually vote then you can participate in the process by promoting an alternative candidate to whatever person you think is poisoning the CSM. 85% of potential votes are out there to win over. Right now they are blank. They shouldn't take much winning over. Suggesting that one candidate or class of candidate shouldn't be allowed to stand is absurd. You could always stand up and present yourself (or somebody else) as the antithesis of Mittens if you think he is such poison.

In any representative voting system people who don't vote rarely get representation... and they often complain after the fact too. No single successful candidate is the problem. The problem lies with the people who don't vote. So if you care about this then get people voting and get them voting for your favoured candidate, or at least against the one you want to keep out.

Personally, I like Mittens. He wears expensive jeans and expensive jeans are cool....
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#100 - 2011-10-21 13:23:13 UTC
Guy Grand wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Guy Grand wrote:
[quote=Eternum Praetorian]I have said this before, I want my interests and the interests of my friends addressed.

This makes you different then the current CSM how?



They are elected to represent people like me.
I am not elected to represent myself am I?


Your answer completely sidesteps my point. You fail completely to address the others. Try again.



No, it does it just fine.
I, like 99% of the player base, are meant to be represented by our elected representatives, the CSM. That is why they exist, and we should not have to "fly to Iceland" to have our interests communicated.

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