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FW: rebalancing NPCs and you

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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#581 - 2012-11-26 18:31:00 UTC
Do plex timers reset/tick down yet when people warp out?
Anna Shoul
#582 - 2012-11-26 18:31:25 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The NPCs not applying much damage is intentional so that they don't discourage pvp as much as the current system. They exist as speedbumps, and other players are the main event.


It's not the DPS in this case, but the tracking. At ~1200m/s with an effective orbit radius of ~1500m, it was unable to hit me entirely, so I could orbit it indefinitely. If it's role is to prevent me from plexing with an undersized and underpowered ship, it didn't work very well, I didn't try that Atron fit in a larger plex, but I suspect an all-T2-mods version would kill it anyway. If it's role is just to annoy me and give my FW opponents more time to catch me plexing in their system, well, yes, I suppose it works...
...but it would do best to scram me then. :)
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#583 - 2012-11-26 18:35:20 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Do plex timers reset/tick down yet when people warp out?


Unfortunately we didn't have time to get that into the first Retri release.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#584 - 2012-11-26 18:52:59 UTC
I wonder about another problem actually in the design:
When a minmatar plexer in minmatar ship is plexing he is also with 80% probability perfectly fitted for pvp.
Why? Because he has best possible em and thermal resists.
If an amarr plexer tries the same in an amarr laser boat he has some disadvantage:
He is probably perfectly fitted vs minmatar rat damage but the chasing minmatar pilot knows that and uses another damage type. Something the amarr pilot cannot do.

On topic:

Please do not start this one wave stuff. I was so happy I didn´t see any doublestabbed plexing slashers any more.
And do not tell us you will switch it fast if you see too much plexing. You already needed about 5 months to fix the plex issue after Inferno which almost killed whole amarr militia plus absurd amounts of isk for minmatar (yeah congrats plex costs 600m now...)
Not to mention this heroic idea at the beginning giving caldari and minnie npcs ewar and amarr plus gallente not....
That was the beginning of the drama.
We really don´t need that sh..... again.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#585 - 2012-11-26 18:53:03 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Anna Shoul wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Sounds like high-dps short range hulls are a "challenge" for this implementation of FW plexes?


Me, I'm not sure that there's a point to have NPCs in plexes at all.

Granted, it took me quite a while to kill that cruiser as my DPS isn't that high in that fit, but it certainly couldn't touch me. Maybe solo NPCs aren't really the way to go - a couple frigs to back it up could cause me problems.


The NPCs not applying much damage is intentional so that they don't discourage pvp as much as the current system. They exist as speedbumps, and other players are the main event.

love it

can upgraded FW systems give a bonus to how many speed bumps spawn? like 3 max for highest level? 2 for the next lowest, and 1 for every other so it's only a high end bonus? or maybe just maxing out a system makes spawns double so 2 ships show up?

just brain storming

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#586 - 2012-11-26 19:06:16 UTC  |  Edited by: chatgris
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We'll keep an eye on it and can change as needed if the results aren't good. However I plan on using medium plexes to farm HAC kills using my T1 cruisers. Twisted


If you want to farm HAC's in a cruiser, you can still do so in the current majors.

A serious question:

Obviously with rookie plexes, frigates are not considered on par with t2 frigates. What makes cruisers vs t2 cruisers different from frigates vs t2 frigates?

Because the coming setup of destroyers vs t2 frigates seems like it should translate to battlecruisers vs t2 cruisers. Same question, what makes this different?
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#587 - 2012-11-26 19:50:00 UTC
I agree, the best solution would IMO be one plex size for every of the 6 ship classes, with t2 rated one class higher.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#588 - 2012-11-26 19:54:47 UTC
Why did we cut numbers of NPCs to one at a time? That is crazy. I'll just have to hop into a 500-600 DPS Catalyst and get under the guns of one BS rat to run majors. Or a Stealth bomber.

Here is the thing CCP Fozzie. Every little corp or alliance in FW has a home base system. They also all have a 8 hour blind spot where people of the opposing faction can plex their systems. This new system will bring back the farmers as well as the three hour blocks of time you need to dplex your home system before you can do what you actually want to do.

Currently you need a committed effort to take a system. If rats are interfering with PvP then cutting their DPS and slightly modifying numbers would be the way to go. This is everything plus the kitchen sink.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#589 - 2012-11-26 19:57:56 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Anna Shoul wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Sounds like high-dps short range hulls are a "challenge" for this implementation of FW plexes?


Me, I'm not sure that there's a point to have NPCs in plexes at all.

Granted, it took me quite a while to kill that cruiser as my DPS isn't that high in that fit, but it certainly couldn't touch me. Maybe solo NPCs aren't really the way to go - a couple frigs to back it up could cause me problems.

The NPCs not applying much damage is intentional so that they don't discourage pvp as much as the current system. They exist as speedbumps, and other players are the main event.

So, it still takes a sufficiently long time for a lower sized hull to wear down rats in a larger sized plex? If so, then that's fine.

The 600 dps Catalyst option should not be available for larger plexes, but I see this as challenging to achieve if you also want a Drake or other ship to be able to solo a plex as well. Good luck!

The other thing to do is space out the rat spawns so that it makes it more difficult to afk plex with minimum skill alts (spawns at beginning and end of timer, and evenly spaced throughout if there are more than two).

That's probably the best you can do. Then it's up to the players.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#590 - 2012-11-26 21:13:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
i soloed a lage plex in a cheap pvp fitted punisher while playing planetside. (only one cane spawned). I don't see why it is supposed to be better as the current situation. In fact i would be happier if CCP would keep it as is. Having the beacon within warpin range serves no purpose, it rather limits ship options. Having a singe NPC at a time in the plex will just unlock those stealthbombers again - but this time it has sov implications rather then just mission farming.

the changes are rather random, e.g. once timer resets are implemented you just could revert most of them. This is the real fix to thie problem. There is still no reason why the plexer should stay and fight. Unless you add a bubble around the flag you can move the warpin wherever you want - its pointless - it just causes other issues

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#591 - 2012-11-26 21:15:11 UTC
Farmers gonna farm. The best you can do is make it so the barrier to entry is high enough to deter the casual farmer from rolling nine alts.

Part of making FW a farmer unfriendly area is on the players to make it unpleasant and unprofitable to farm plexes and runaway at the first sign of trouble, but getting the timer reversion in place as fast as possible would be a big help in that regard.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#592 - 2012-11-26 22:36:53 UTC
It is reinventing the wheel where no reinvention needs to be done. The most annoying thing about minors is the endless frigate spawns. There is what, seven or eight spawns?? That is annoying but the rats themselves are not a threat in a minor.

Rats in mediums and majors only interfere if there is a full spawn. Make the spawn one at a time - issue solved.

Plexing is a sov mechanic. It needs to be time consuming. One rat at a time is a joke. If this rolls out as is on TQ Amarr will be on their heels again.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#593 - 2012-11-26 22:50:22 UTC
One more thing....

I currently run Majors in a Naga. It cuts through the rats like a hot knife through butter. It also gets some great comedy kills when people come into the plex and charge me. The ship itself is at great risk when I'm jumping it in and out of a system I'm trying to plex. It's also very vulnerable until I get range inside a plex. Lastly, cloaky ships are a significant threat.

The button is being moved closer in and the number of rats are being brought down. Do you think I'll continue to risk my Naga? Or just bring a cheap DPS boat?

You should be looking at where the rats spawn relative to the button and how often they spawn. Changing everything is unnecessary.
Jarin Arenos
Card Shark Industries
#594 - 2012-11-26 23:05:44 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We'll keep an eye on it and can change as needed if the results aren't good. However I plan on using medium plexes to farm HAC kills using my T1 cruisers. Twisted



Eh, sorry.

It's really nice that the FLIPPING designer and known "pro" is thinking about farming T2 HACs. THat's really cute and special and stuff, but thanks for thinking about all the people that are learning to PVP and will never ever ever stand a chance.

Good thinkin.

Roll




Gotta emphasize this. C'mon, Fozzie, you're usually so good at keeping personal perspective out of balancing. Don't fail us now!

But I'm not CCP Soundwave, so what do I know?
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#595 - 2012-11-26 23:21:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Sheynan
I like the new solitary rat, but it should really be tougher.

I was able to blap a the single Harbinger NPC that is guarding a large plex in seconds with my nado.


P.S: Also I repeat: 6 ship classes -> 6 plex sizes, t2 rated one class higher.
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#596 - 2012-11-27 00:58:24 UTC
How about that. Battleship sized guns blap slow moving battlecruiser sized NPCs. Go figgure. Straight

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Anna Shoul
#597 - 2012-11-27 03:32:53 UTC
Something random I just thought about.

If my memory serves me right, Faction Warfare LP store offers also include offers that require enemy navy tags. Previously, those tags were plentiful due to being readily available in any plex.

Well, now that there's only one NPC per plex, where exactly are people meant to be getting these? :)
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#598 - 2012-11-27 06:53:23 UTC
chatgris wrote:
I will join in the chorus of "please no t2 cruisers in mediums". Being able to avoid the falcon/rapier/curse/guardian crap (ships that fight bs's out in the open) is one of the best things about fw.

But I will try and state my case in relation to the other plexes:

Destroyers enter the plexes with t2 frigates. It follows that battlecruisers are the tier to fight t2 cruisers.

Concretely, I am suggestig:

Rookie (t1 frigs)
Minor (t1 frigs and destroyers and t2 frigs and below)
Medium (t1 cruisers and below)
Major (t2 cruisers and battlecruisers and below)
Unrestricted (everything, no gate as now)

Not only does it keep the fun factor of being able to hide from the null sec style gangs in t1 cruisers, it matches the logic splitting off the rookie plex from the minor plexes.


This. Please do it like this.

Also....the number of farmers have been reduced greatly since the last patch. I no longer try to run med or large plexes in my frigate.....I go and risk my SFI for it if a med or large needs to be done. I don't see any problems with the current NPC's right now.

NPC's should be having same overall difficulty though. Right now I'm mostly safe from amarrian NPC's when I'm 40k away. Should be same difficulty for all races.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#599 - 2012-11-27 14:21:13 UTC
The battlecruiser in the large plex seems to have the right level of tank now, not much you can do about high DPS destroyers but at least they are quite vulnerable to other ships.

The cruiser in the medium is still vulnerable to my incursus and I feel you can kick it’s tank up a notch, any of the new cruisers easily put out decent DPS and will have no problem dealing with a bit more tank.
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#600 - 2012-11-30 00:46:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Cynthia Nezmor
Alticus C Bear wrote:
The battlecruiser in the large plex seems to have the right level of tank now, not much you can do about high DPS destroyers but at least they are quite vulnerable to other ships.




Vulnerable would be a 1000km bubble around the plex and multiple waves of NPCs that can actually hold at least a T1 frig until the fabled "pvp" comes to the farmer.

Consider this scenario: neutral Daredevil/Vigilant comes in, ganks the 1 NPC ship, moves to next plex. Docks up if anything comes near him. After all plexes cleared, he decloaks the 8 stabbed Condors/Reapers to run the timers. Here he can go afk, and come back 30 minutes later.

Retribution = Farm Wars 2.0.