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Making the four High Sec empires separated by low sec.

Author
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-11-26 05:35:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Ted
I already proposed this idea in features and ideas and found that I had a lot of positive feedback and most of the arguments against it were defeated, so I think it would be a good idea to post it here now.

Original Thread

Summary is this: All current gates that connect high security space empires would be shut. These would be replaced by four new regions (one for each race) that connect all the empires and are all low security. They would be designed with few choke points and many entrances. Not to mention changing the map is something CCP has done in the past and would be a relatively low effort endeavor.

Why?

1. Break apart Jita as a super hub and help homogenize industry all across eve.
2. Make trading more interesting as a profession instead of the easily botable afk fest it currently is.
3. Add more profits to trading for the amount of time/isk/effort put into it and remove a lot of the boring spread sheet studying.
4. Make low security space relevant other than a cyno route, capital bakery,PI, and faction warfare.
5. Bring back trade caravans for moving large amounts of goods (New freighter class with more armor/shield ehp to allow logistics support and mobility?)
6. Anti Pirating would actually be something worth doing instead of RP'ers who die miserably
7. Pirating would be a real profession and not being -10 popping the occasional missioner and fighting other "pirates"
8. missioners and ore Carebears would have new extra profit opportunities by having the option to move modules/ice/cheap minerals to other hubs.
9. Maybe it would bring about courier contracts that actually make money?
10. Greater uniqueness and sense of identity attached to your area of high sec.

Optional additions
Ore distribution in the four empires would be changed along with ship mineral costs. Minmatar ships will be built with ores found more commonly in minmatar space etc. Not a necessity for this idea to work but it would be cool. Also fix nullsec industry while your at it.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2012-11-26 06:54:55 UTC
Supported on the condition that more low-sec "entry points" are added so there are multiple routes one can take into and through low-sec.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-11-26 07:02:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Ted
ShahFluffers wrote:
Supported on the condition that more low-sec "entry points" are added so there are multiple routes one can take into and through low-sec.

Definitely a no brainer. I think their are currently 23 entrances into Caldari high-sec from lowsec not counting lowsec islands. Another 10 should be sufficient. I have not looked into the other 3 empires number of entrances but I assume they are similar except for the Amarr. Of course many of those entrances lead into bottleneck constellations which need to have extra exits added or more bypass constellations.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.

Karig'Ano Keikira
Tax Cheaters
#4 - 2012-11-26 09:41:01 UTC
as high sec industrialist, I like the idea - it would certainly add to trade opportunities, production opportunities as well as making life more interesting for everyone.
Alternatively, leave one high sec pipe, but make it especially long and boring :) (for those who insist on safe travel, not to mention that it would create ideal place for high sec gankers Twisted)
Amelia Valkiery
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-11-26 11:22:57 UTC
Fully support. Low sec has something to fight over (trade routes) and perhaps hire-able protection along the route, for anyone holding the space.

I would recommend a long range Hyperspace gate between the empires though, but only for small ships (Shuttles) and for a fee frigates so new players aren't completely locked-in into their empire. And you can move around and explore things.
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#6 - 2012-11-26 13:26:27 UTC
This again? Well I suppose it has been a while.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law

Anslo
Scope Works
#7 - 2012-11-26 14:00:19 UTC
Implement it and people leave. As has been said before, there are people who will never goto lowsec, no matter what anyone says. You interrupt their game by forcing lowsec travel on them, they vote with their wallet and leave.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Nir Trild
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-11-26 16:00:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Nir Trild
Anslo wrote:
Implement it and people leave. As has been said before, there are people who will never goto lowsec, no matter what anyone says. You interrupt their game by forcing lowsec travel on them, they vote with their wallet and leave.


No
People - especial new player - are leaving because Eve isn't a "dark, harsh world" full of adventures and mmo pvp-challenges they ve been told (beyond 0-sec). They run lvl3-4 boring as hell.

Because Eve is a f***ing paradise, where everybody can get everything without fighting - just grinding for.

Lowsec is empty and noone needs to go there (fw exepted), nothing there is unique, pirates are pirating themselves.
(Btw an old idea to boost lowsec http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1248596)

In 0-sec arrived you are surrounded by blues.

New Eden needs more difficulties not less to create more obvious ingame passions - and professions.

It doesnt help the game that a newbee has a long time to play till he discovered the hidden secrets of eve-fun even how to write his own history in the sandbox.

And this...more gamemechanic rpg-content could help too:

Commander Ted wrote:

...
When I travel from jita to hek the only thing that changes are the stargates and sky color. If their were an actual barrier for me to cross for me to get their I might have a sense of being somewhere else and im not in my home with home being somewhere very far away. It would make eve feel a lot bigger.


So I fully support his idea!
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-11-26 16:58:23 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Implement it and people leave. As has been said before, there are people who will never goto lowsec, no matter what anyone says. You interrupt their game by forcing lowsec travel on them, they vote with their wallet and leave.


Your not being forced to go into lowsec. Most people hump the same level 4 agent for weeks to months anyway so it would not affect you at all. All the carebears still have access to the same roids, the same ice, the same missions, and the same factory slots. If you want to move somewhere else then you can use cloaky haulers, scouts, high sec-high sec wormholes, or a transportation corporation.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.

Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-11-26 16:59:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Ted
Karig'Ano Keikira wrote:
as high sec industrialist, I like the idea - it would certainly add to trade opportunities, production opportunities as well as making life more interesting for everyone.
Alternatively, leave one high sec pipe, but make it especially long and boring :) (for those who insist on safe travel, not to mention that it would create ideal place for high sec gankers Twisted)

That is basically the current system. their are only 4 highsec exits from caldari space and 3 of them are 1 jump from each other and go to the same system. Maybe make it 100 jumps then id be happy.

People who insist on safe travel will still have cloaked haulers and wormholes.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.

Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-11-26 18:07:58 UTC
Amelia Valkiery wrote:
Fully support. Low sec has something to fight over (trade routes) and perhaps hire-able protection along the route, for anyone holding the space.

I would recommend a long range Hyperspace gate between the empires though, but only for small ships (Shuttles) and for a fee frigates so new players aren't completely locked-in into their empire. And you can move around and explore things.


Not to hard to cross low sec in a shuttle/frigate/pod, just make sure their are no smartbomb camps and hope to god their are no sensor boosting legions or anything and you will be fine.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.

Nylith Empyreal
Sutar Rein
#12 - 2012-11-27 01:48:38 UTC
Throwing my support. Cheers.

Who's the more foolish the fool or the fool who replies to him?

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#13 - 2012-11-27 02:03:29 UTC
At a glance, this would have the ancillary effect of making high sec to null sec logistics significantly safer: The now-huge border with high sec, combined with the lack of choke points, would mean that nullsec alliances could use more hubs, including secondary hubs like Hek and Oursulaert, and transfer their goods from freighters to carriers and jump freighters from more low sec systems, with long jump-friendly routes from even deep high sec back into null.

It would have a built-in tradeoff in the form of potentially higher fuel costs, but it would mean that if a null sec alliance really wanted to go shopping in high sec, fuel costs would be just about the only thing stopping them. I'm not sure exactly how much that would change, but it's something I'd want someone knowledgeable to weigh in on before I +1'd the idea.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#14 - 2012-11-28 18:53:37 UTC

Supported.

While it makes perfect sense for allied empires to have boarders from high sec space to their allies high sec space this makes no sense for nations at war. I would expect that any boarder between waring empires would be a war zone. i.e. low sec.

If Amarr and Minmatar empires are supposed to be allied against the Caldari and Gallente empires then there should be no boarder between the two sides that is not contested. Sure the current low sec faction war systems are the official "war zone" but how could any system that shares a boarder with an empire they are at war with be high security space?

There are many high sec "Islands" in the EVE universe. The primary empires should at least be divided between two high sec "continents" with low sec space separating them. Other lesser factions should be restricted to their own high sec "Islands"

One thing I have always though would be really cool in EVE would be to have it more like an actual living universe. Have the sec status of systems shift depending on how the war goes. As low sec systems are captured and secured the security level of surrounding systems should shift. If one side controls every system within a 6 jump radius of a high sec entry then that entry systems security rating should go up. Like wise if the opposing side captures all the low sec systems bordering your high sec systems then the security rating of those high sec systems should drop.

In order to stop this from allowing a powerful militia on one side from slowly chewing away at the other sides high sec eventually making that empire smaller, you could have live events where the empire navies jump into the systems the reclaim them for the original owning empire. These could be like a faction wars version of incursions where the winning side could then battle against the empires fleet of faction ships for big rewards. Offer massive rewards to the losing side if they help to reclaim lost systems. Of course it would have to be done in a way that the navy eventually wins to prevent entire regions from switching empire control. But it would make EVE feel like a much more alive universe if security levels of systems fluctuated depending on the outcome of the war.
AnJuan Jackson
Red Star Trading Corporation
#15 - 2012-11-28 20:42:29 UTC
Please consider this CCP!! It is worth looking into and would make the game more interesting.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-11-28 20:58:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Ted
I believe that it would be more interesting if all four empires were separtated. While it is silly to think that allied empires would not try to be connected to each other I propose that the reason they are not is through the work of their enemies.

Here is my lore explanation for the new regions and why the current gates were severed.


The caldari states new jump gate technology to explore the rest of black rise has caused stargate wormholes to be unstable that are near black rise. This new region is called "Black Void" and has caused the connecting gallente and amarr stargates that are high security space to be severed due to their proximity. The gallente have also lost connection to the minmatar due to this strange event. Black void would be a narrow sparsely filled region filling the void from the serpent's coil to algintal. Many suspect this new jumpgate technology was not discovered by the caldari but purposely given to them by an unknown entity. The Gallente have discovered a new ancient jumpgate network near the myrdian strip, and would be named after the local landmark. The angel cartel and serpentis have began moving in because they feel that their is ancient jovian technology to be had making it very insecure. This region will connect to minmatar and ammatar space with another connection to black void. The ammatar have decided to break all ties with the amarr and destroyed all their stargates in high security space. They wish to ally with the minmatar republic but they are still a sovereign state, at the same time the ammatar have found new gravity wells in divinities edge and began settling their. Divinities edge will be the minmatar's new zone (kinda). Amarr are huge and don't need ****, they just will connect to Black Void and Divinities Edge.

Currently each faction connects to their ally and their historial enemy by high sec while having to cross their allies space in order to get to the enemy of their friends space.

Because I got confused myself writing that here is a simplified form

Divinties edge, black void, and myridian connect to each other so the path would be.
Caldari -> Amarr = Hisec -> Black Void -> hisec
Amarr -> Gallente = Hisec -> Black Void OR Divinity -> Myrdian -> hisec
Amarr -> Minmatar = Hisec -> Divinity -> Hisec
Gallente -> Minmatar = Hisec -> myridian -> hisec
Caldari -> Minmatar = Hisec -> Black Void -> Divinity OR Myrdian -> Hisec

Also Divinities Edge would be difficult to properly place, maybe snuggler underneath ammatar space?


For each race to reach their main enemies area they can still cross the current FW battlegrounds.

All four races can reach the enemy of their friends more quickly by way of the already existing narrow constellations.

Along with a simplified map showing the basic interconnections between regions
Basic Map
The letters are abbreviations for the name of the regions or represent an entire empire as a whole.
I know I am missing a lot of the currently existing empire low regions but I think that map follows the general layout minus high sec connections.

Keep in mind their will be more than one connection between the regions shown with connecting black lines, those just represent what regions do connect with each other. I may make a map that is more accurate and shows better how the new regions would fit into the current eve map but that is for another time.

UPDATE
I have added a new map that is overlaps the current eve map showing where the proposed regions could go and what the new gates may look like.
New map

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.

Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-11-28 21:15:48 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
At a glance, this would have the ancillary effect of making high sec to null sec logistics significantly safer: The now-huge border with high sec, combined with the lack of choke points, would mean that nullsec alliances could use more hubs, including secondary hubs like Hek and Oursulaert, and transfer their goods from freighters to carriers and jump freighters from more low sec systems, with long jump-friendly routes from even deep high sec back into null.

It would have a built-in tradeoff in the form of potentially higher fuel costs, but it would mean that if a null sec alliance really wanted to go shopping in high sec, fuel costs would be just about the only thing stopping them. I'm not sure exactly how much that would change, but it's something I'd want someone knowledgeable to weigh in on before I +1'd the idea.


Under my plan you would probably spent the same amount of fuel getting to the closest high security empire. If you were in say providence and wanted to go to Jita, you would have to spend a lot more fuel to get you their safely, but Amarr will still be the same distance.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.

Ronan Connor
#18 - 2012-11-28 21:42:39 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Implement it and people leave. As has been said before, there are people who will never goto lowsec, no matter what anyone says. You interrupt their game by forcing lowsec travel on them, they vote with their wallet and leave.

I think exactly this would happen.

Why dont use a different approach of giving the possibility of a faster travel by "layers".

Say the universe would be a burger. High sec would be the meat itself. Now to travel alot faster from deep Gallente to the outer border of Minmatar you would enter another tier, the "cheese". This low sec tier would enable you to do say 5 jumps instead of 30.
Doing so you give an advantage to people so that they want to use this way, instead of forcing low sec onto highsec players. I am myself dont stay in just one area.

Storywise this could be a middle thing of low sec and wormhole. After the wormholes the races did try to make an arteficial wormhole, which lead to the entrance of a parallel universe or the "hyperspace" like in Babylon 5.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-11-28 21:48:25 UTC
Ronan Connor wrote:
.

Why dont use a different approach of giving the possibility of a faster travel by "layers".

Say the universe would be a burger. High sec would be the meat itself. Now to travel alot faster from deep Gallente to the outer border of Minmatar you would enter another tier, the "cheese". This low sec tier would enable you to do say 5 jumps instead of 30.
Doing so you give an advantage to people so that they want to use this way, instead of forcing low sec onto highsec players. I am myself dont stay in just one area.

Storywise this could be a middle thing of low sec and wormhole. After the wormholes the races did try to make an arteficial wormhole, which lead to the entrance of a parallel universe or the "hyperspace" like in Babylon 5.

That is how it is already, everyone just uses the high sec route because its easy and you can do it afk.

With this change you will still have plenty of safe travel options available like wormholes and blockade runners. Those who want more isk making opportunities by trade will have them and those who still want to be safe will have more difficulty and have to invent more time into getting to another empire but the lower volumes of trade going through will equal more profits per trip. The only play style that will be destroyed by this is the one of not being their at all while your freighter goes back and forth from amarr and jita all day.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.

Ronan Connor
#20 - 2012-11-29 10:46:48 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:

That is how it is already, everyone just uses the high sec route because its easy and you can do it afk.

With this change you will still have plenty of safe travel options available like wormholes and blockade runners. Those who want more isk making opportunities by trade will have them and those who still want to be safe will have more difficulty and have to invent more time into getting to another empire but the lower volumes of trade going through will equal more profits per trip. The only play style that will be destroyed by this is the one of not being their at all while your freighter goes back and forth from amarr and jita all day.

I dont think it is like this right now. There are some shortcuts, but not to bring such a huge advantage of reaching jita from everywhere in high sec within 5 jumps. It maybe brings you 14 instead of 18 jumps. The risk this is bringing is not worth it.

Wormholes arent safe nor are they worth the trouble (finding it first, checking the mass of it, bringing a freighter in it). Blockade runners arent worth their name. You only want to fly into low sec if you can fit a cloak like with the Viator.

Certainly you would destroy the afk freighter routes but you would also ruin normal high sec players life by forcing them through low sec when they want to get from Amarr to Jita.

Again I am not against a buff of low sec systems. The new ORE frigate is exemplary for that. More people will use it and try out more dangerous regions with a t1 frigate. Therefore more mining will happen in low sec, therefore the mineral market will grow out there and you probably with have more professional mineral buyer getting the stuff back to high sec.
But keep in mind that "where there is a winner, there is a looser". That would cause people to quit who dont want to live with this kind of buff of yours for the low sec, therefore the felt and real nerf of their playstyle.

If you really want to get rid of afk freighter, you need to find ways to make it worth not flying afk (and by that i dont mean you will be killed by afk - what you are right now anyway in Uedama).
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