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The Gallente Problem II

Author
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#41 - 2012-11-26 16:16:20 UTC
Stitcher you realize that trying to debate anything rationally with the likes of Kim is like trying to teach a pig chemistry; destined for failure from the start?

While I applaud your efforts it's more productive to assume that her mad ramblings are simply poor attempts at trolling and to ignore them.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-11-26 16:22:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
It does actually serve a purpose anyway - I receive the benefit of being able to externalise my thought process and thereby come to a greater understanding of the subject, analyse my own arguments, see which ones stand up and which ones are flawed.

It's amazing how much you can learn about chemistry by trying to teach it to a pig.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-11-26 16:23:47 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
you're either deliberately misinterpreting me for what you think is comic effect, or you just suck at basic reading comprehension.

When I say "abandon my DNA" I don't mean abandon DNA in general. I mean abandon MY DNA. The particular sequence that I had when I was born. I don't have to have it. So long as my genetic code falls inside the spectrum of the human genome, it doesn't technically matter which specific genes I inherited and from whom I inherited them, other than for reasons of nostalgia.

The fact that I have Civire genes is completely irrelevant to the good functioning of my body. They are, effectively, cosmetic.

Now you didn't understand me.
Genes is not that how you look. It is how your cells function.
Damn. You see, your look, or phenotype, is only based on your genes, and forms with you as you develop. And these genes, that your phenotype is based on, is a very tiny and insignificant part of your genotype! Inside we are much more different than outside. Moreover, there is a very limited number of genes, that code one property. Majority of them encode several different properties, and when you modify them, you make something better, and something worse. You can't become better in everything by genetic engineering.
That's why there is a belief that each person should take a place, where he can bring most of benefit.
That's why we are way more efficient than gallentean grey masses.
That's why we will win.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-11-26 16:41:22 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
your phenotype is based on... a very tiny and insignificant part of your genotype!

...

That's why we are way more efficient than gallentean grey masses.


You know, I bet if you tried you could compress that contradiction down into a single sentence. Although you were impressively quick about it anyway.

You're right, the genes encoding your phenotype are an absolutely miniscule proportion of the human genome. But this miniscule proportion is what I was focusing on throughout. The entire intent of my statement is that my phenotype if you wish to be technically precise, is not relevant

You see, outside of the phenotype, there are not even a handful of significant genetic differences between Calari and Gallente. In fact the only two I can think of right now are that most ethnically Civire and Deteis people can safely metabolise the Kresh toxin, and most Gallente can metabolise lactose.

We are, in short, the same damn species. Our biggest differences are cultural, idealogical and philosophical, not genetic.

The fact that I have a square jaw, dark hair and pale skin are by FAR the biggest genetic differences separating me from a red-haired, tan-skinned, high-cheekbone'd Gallentean neighbour. These differences are greatly less significant than the fact that my ideals are meritocratic and collectivist, whereas theirs will probably be democratic and individualist.

You said it yourself - the phenotype is a tiny and insignificant part of the genome. Given that it is only the phenotype which actually distinguishes the difference between any two ethnic groups, it follows that the difference between ethnic groups is also tiny and insignificant.

Ergo, it is our philosophies, opinions, decisions and ethics that define us, not the smallest and most meaningless part of our genome.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#45 - 2012-11-26 16:46:46 UTC
Verin Hakatain wrote:
One of the women responsible for the modern starship jump drive can only speak thanks to the medical implants in the speech centers of her brain.


She is my hero :)

Regarding the conversation on genetics;

Kim-haani is not entirely incorrect in her assessments. The rate of dendrite growth, neurotransmitter production levels both inside and outside of the neuron, dendrite and axon branching habits, and other specifics have a very large influence on the day-to-day operation of the brain. Many of these traits are epigenetic and will switch on and off as determined by the presence of other marker proteins as well. While they don't have any impact on the momentary map shape, they do affect the edge weights of the map and are critical in determining a map vector.

You are thus both correct in your own way. Verin-haan is very correct in saying that the shape of his thoughts are the same regardless of his genetics, because the shape of his neurons is already determined. Kim-haani is likewise correct in stating that the day-to-day changes of her mind are heavily influenced by her genetics, which play part in how her neurons branch and develop new synapses.

It is also worthwhile to note that, while we do have a genome distinct from the Gallenteans, this distinction is trivial. Our differences will be dominated by environment and culture.

As in many questions, the needed answer is as much a function of perspective as it is of analysis.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-11-26 16:54:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Scherezad wrote:
You are thus both correct in your own way. Verin-haan is very correct in saying that the shape of his thoughts are the same regardless of his genetics, because the shape of his neurons is already determined. Kim-haani is likewise correct in stating that the day-to-day changes of her mind are heavily influenced by her genetics, which play part in how her neurons branch and develop new synapses.


Indeed, though the differences between ethnic groups are so minute that if I were to, for example, have myself a genetically Thukker body assembled and were to move into it for a year, I very much doubt there would be any detectable difference in my personality after one year that was statistically distinguishable from the changes brought on by simply being alive for one year.

Not that I plan to try such an experiment. I'm not that liberal.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#47 - 2012-11-26 16:58:03 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Indeed, though the differences between ethnic groups are so minute that if I were to, for example, have myself a genetically Thukker body assembled and were to move into it for a year, I very much doubt there would be any detectable difference in my personality after one year that was statistically distinguishable from the changes brought on by simply being alive for one year.

Not that I plan to try such an experiment. I'm not that liberal.


That's very true! To be honest, I'd be surprised if you could manage to specify a "Thukker" genotype with any amount of clarity. The edges on our maps are sharp, but the edges in our blood are hardly edges at all.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#48 - 2012-11-26 17:27:33 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
You said it yourself - the phenotype is a tiny and insignificant part of the genome. Given that it is only the phenotype which actually distinguishes the difference between any two ethnic groups, it follows that the difference between ethnic groups is also tiny and insignificant.

No-no-no. Differences simply can't be localized in such tiny area. They are spread all across the whole genome (ref: "Basic Biochemistry for Foot Soldiers"). Of course, in some places changes are minimal, in others - much greater concentration. But would you agree, that all differences just simply can't by some sort of magic localize in a specified area of genome, the only one, that we can see? We look different because it is the small part of changing genome is seen. Much more differences are left unseen.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-11-26 17:34:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
We aren't talking a locality, we're talking a percentage. A tiny, insignificant percentage.

And no, much of the genome in fact doesn't vary by any sufficiently significant amount as to cause any two ethnic groups to be more than arbitrarily biochemically different. my biochemistry works in more or less exactly the same way as yours, which in turn works in much the same way as Jacus Roden's. We are talking an allele here, a base pair there. nothing huge.

In fact, if I were to sequence your genes, strip out the "junk" DNA that serves no apparent chemical purpose at all, and lay that sequence alongside Jacus Roden's for comparison, then the differences between them would represent such a tiny percentage of their total information that a statistician could be forgiven for declaring them to be exactly the same. The difference would fall well inside the standard deviation considered acceptable by most fields for declaring that two separate objects are effectively identical.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-11-26 17:43:15 UTC
How your phenotypes are different, your other functions differ as well. Although in terms of sequences these differences are tiny and minimal, they still form your phenotype, they form rate of chemical reactions, catalyzed by your enzymes. Even a single aminoacid in enzyme can change reaction rate greatly, making it faster or slower. Or completely stopping it.
Visual differences is only the tip of the iceberg.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#51 - 2012-11-26 17:47:39 UTC
You'll notice that I specified "Arbitrarily" different.

Are you REALLY going to claim that minor percentage changes in the reaction rate of certain processes makes more difference to a person's identity than, for example, whether they are an Atheist, a Wayist or Amarr?

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#52 - 2012-11-26 17:48:12 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
How your phenotypes are different, your other functions differ as well. Although in terms of sequences these differences are tiny and minimal, they still form your phenotype, they form rate of chemical reactions, catalyzed by your enzymes. Even a single aminoacid in enzyme can change reaction rate greatly, making it faster or slower. Or completely stopping it.
Visual differences is only the tip of the iceberg.


Did you know that your clones don't have your DNA until you've been in them for a while? Fun fact. I don't really understand it either, but that's the reason we can use basically any spare biomass for a clone.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#53 - 2012-11-26 17:52:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
True enough. The best clones are run up out of human cadavers, too. Seeing as the cloning companies won't tell you who it originally came from, there's every likelihood that most if not all of the clones I've worn over the years were originally of a non-Civire ethnicity.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#54 - 2012-11-26 18:00:35 UTC
It also sort of indicates that the infomorph has a lot more importance to physicality than we previously assumed. It was thought that your DNA indicated, at least in part, who you were, but there appears to be something about who you are that sets your DNA, and we just weren't able to see the causal relationship in the correct direction until we figured out how to pull our minds out of our bodies and stick them in some new meat.

A whole new meaning to mind over matter?
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-11-26 18:01:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
uh... no. They just infect the body with a genegineering retrovirus cultured from your stock DNA when you order it. It takes a few months to completely finish working. Seeing as most capsuleers will be gone only a few weeks at most before needing to activate the clone, that means that most clones never become completely genetically written.

All of which is prepared alongside the surgical treatments to cosmetically configure the clone to your physical specifications when you need a new one. They put the stock clone on the operating table and infect it with the retrovirus before you're even out of the CRU facility's showers.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#56 - 2012-11-26 18:04:30 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
uh... no. They just infect the body with a genegineering retrovirus cultured from your stock DNA when you move into it. It takes a few months to completely finish working.


I didn't know that, and I retract my remarks.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#57 - 2012-11-26 18:12:57 UTC
*Throws a slim volume of "Basic Biochemistry for Foot Soldiers" at camera drone and slams a door*

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#58 - 2012-11-26 19:19:00 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
*Throws a slim volume of "Basic Biochemistry for Foot Soldiers" at camera drone and slams a door*


I have managed to read some of that! It is a lovely little overview, though perhaps a little odd in the topics it chooses to focus on. Good for you, for pursuing a rounded education! If you like the Foot Solder Science series, I would be happy to loan you some of my own. The ones that were gifted to me are:

Basic Linguistics for Foot Solders: The Speech Hierarchy
Basic Physics for Foot Soldiers: Beyond Boot Camp
Basic Logic for Foot Soldiers: When Two Wrongs Make Right
Basic Economics for Foot Soldiers: Spoils of War
Basic Sociology for Foot Soldiers: Behaviours of Victory
Basic Evolution for Foot Soldiers: Descent of Man
Basic Politics for Foot Soldiers: The Wages of Hedonism

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-11-26 19:44:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
An observation: Merely being written in a book is not a guarantee of factual accuracy.

Besides which, what you're doing is telling a man with doctorate-equivalent qualifications in medical nanotechnology, microbiology and ATLS that your basic primer has given you a more rounded biochemical education. I appreciate that I am not a doctor of biochemistry, but I'm certainly better-educated on the subject than I would be if I had only read "Basic Biochemistry for Foot Soldiers". I read scientific journals over my morning coffee, for the Wind's sake.

This, in turn, is no guarantee of factual accuracy of course. It's so hard to resist the pull of the "appeal to authority" fallacy sometimes. I notice Pilot Kim did not.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Unit XS365BT
Unit Commune
#60 - 2012-11-26 21:03:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Unit XS365BT
Diana Kim wrote:

Unit XS365BT wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Mind and body are bound together. Your mind can't think when there is no body: it is just data.



Incorrect.

We Return

Syntax error.

Argument not found.

Retry, abort, ignore?


As it seems apparent that pilot Kim is incapable of research, we shall endeavour to explain in simple terms.

Todo Kirkinen, CEO of Zainou Biotech does not have a biological form, yet he retains conciousness and the ability to control the aforementioned corporation.

CONCORD scientists successfully created a codebreaker module that incorporated the apparently still living head of a sansha true slave.

These are two direct instances where the mind of an entity continued to function without the body.
Therefore our simple statement refuting your somewhat strange claim that the mind requires a body to think was correct.
Our statement did not require an argument as it was simply a fact.

We would also question your theory with a hypothetical query of our own.
Pilot Kim, given that you claim that a mind without a body cannot think, do you believe that the intelectual capacity of a mind decrease if it's body loses a limb?

We Return

Unit XS365BT. Designated Communications Officer. Unit Commune.