EVE General Discussion

Golden words.

First, it's not my future vision of Eve, it's CCP's. They've stated numerous times they want Eve to be the greatest all encompassing sci-fi simulator the world has ever known. You seem to want to ignore that. If you don't like the kind of people who agree with CCP's future vision, then perhaps Eve isn't for you.

Second, I'm not malcontented with the game, I'm jaded by the elitists (Jenna Side) and their vitriol.

Third, your checkers and chess analogy is not good enough. Eve as it is is Chess. Eve expanded into a giant breathing sci-fi simulated world would be 4-D Chess. If you like chess, fine, just make sure to learn 4-D Chess' rules.

Eve may not be for everyone, but that does not mean we should push and shove noobies or casuals out. That's simply not the right way to keep Eve alive.

Check mate.

Your post wasn't addressed to me, but I'd like to poke a few questions in it just in interests of discussion.



Don't you feel that an MMO needs to adapt to the needs of the players? At all?

Consider WoW. Do you remember WoW, back in 2004-2005? It was fairly brutal, actually, contrary to popular belief. PvE was very hard, you would routinely die to standard run of the mill PvE, both solo and in group. How often do you die in PvE in EVE? So which game is more hardcore? And before you say dying in WoW was meaningless, it was not. Single night of raiding in PvE could cost 20-25g in repair fees - that's weeks of farming - it was as painful as losing a faction fit BS. EVE looks easy by comparison. Further, an endgame raid took a group of dedicated 40 people, in good gear, with voice-comms, anywhere from 4-8 hrs to do, usually in one sitting, and still with a solid potential of not managing to kill the last boss.

PvP was downright brutal. A single battleground match could last between 18 and 37 hrs. Yes, you could start a battle of Alterac Valley in the morning, play all day, go to sleep, wake up and resume the assault inside the same match the next morning. It was very, very common. The PvP ranking system was based on performance, with a built-in decay, and an exponential scale. That is, if you stopped PvPing for a week, you would actually lose ranks. So once you jumped onto the treadmill, you could not jump off, without losing a lot of your hard work. It required a total commitment to reach top rank, and only a handful of people in the world managed it, that's how hard it was. Those that achieved it said it required to give up their job, family, social obligations and basic hygiene, and was hazardous to health. That's how tough it was. Again, which game is more hardcore here? EVE sounds like carebear heaven by comparison.

Why am I saying all this? To show you that contrary to popular belief, early vanilla WoW wasn't all mai-tais and yahtzee.

Now, if Blizzard adopted your mode of thinking, and CCPs - that is, "HTFO or GTFO" what would have happened to WoW? Well, we'll never know, will we? Instead of telling paying customers to GTFO, those nutjobs at Blizzard went and began adapting the game to their player base, once they realized that the bulk of it was semi-casual carebears. At the same time, they recognized that there was a healthy population of crazed PvPers, and did not leave them in the dust either, adding arenas in the first expansion, and another battleground. Arenas, ranging from 2v2 to 5v5 and being insanely competitive, gave PvPers something to do, so they didn't have to GTFO of the game that was becoming increasingly casual. A few expansions later they added rated battlegrounds, which were more like maxi-arenas, with matchmaking by performance. So good teams fought good teams, and noobs fought noobs - something you almost never see in EVE - pros prefer to stomp noobs, noobs object, pros complain they don't get enough noobs to shoot at. And both PvEers, carebears and PvPers found a way to co-exist in the game.

Net result? 10+ million subs (13 million at peak?) for 8 years and counting. Plus vibrant Blizzard store sales ($10-25 for virtual pets and mounts). Odds that someone from 10 million player pool would be dumb enough to fork over $25 for a virtual pony, on top of $15 sub, are much higher than someone doing the same thing from a population of 450k.

What's the lesson here? Instead of treating a portion of player base as scum, and telling them to HTFU or GTFO, the developers treated ALL of their customers as...drumroll please...paying customers! That is, respect, consideration and attention. Not scourge of the game, but rather walking moneybags.

And speaking of having fantasies about what could be, don't you suffer from an identical fantasy about what EVE could be if the scourge of carebears was suddenly erased from the game? Yours is a delusion just like theirs.



Maybe it should be? Crazy, I know. But just try really hard and imagine a sandbox where there's room for everyone. There's a place for carebears, and a place for raving maniacs. Yes, raving maniacs would be unable to go to newbie area and butcher the newbie carebears...oh, wait...that's already a bannable offense in EVE. Imagine that! Now extend the same paradigm to the rest of hi-sec, and make it known that players like that won't be treated as sewage any more, and watch what happens to the game.

And this does not infringe on the killers' right to kill. You can still go out and gank people to your heart's content. Just not in hi-sec. Just like you already can't in newbie systems. But ask yourself, isn't that restriction worth possibly increasing EVE's subscriber numbers? And thus the amount of money CCP would be able to spend on making the game better, including your precious PvP content? Is ganking clueless people in hi-sec more important to you?

And for the record, I've been in low sec for about 8 months now, just not active in the last few months (other games too good). So hi-sec doesn't bother me one way or another. I just disagree on theoretical level with all the carebear hate in supposedly a sandbox MMO.

No. A sandbox is an environment with as few restrictions as possible. In a multilayer game that would also include as few restrictions on interaction between players as possible. Ability for the players to make their own social order, politics, rules, economy, etc.

In a true multi-player sandbox, if you want a safer environment, you organize a bunch of people who feel the same way, settle some area in a game, create a police force, secure it and enforce your own laws; forge alliances, use politics and economical power to further fortify your position, and so on. EVE is actually very limited in that regard as it is. I'm not entirely happy about that, but I knew what I was signing up for.

The highlighted part takes Effort and talking to other human beings, even in some cases *gasp* having to "take orders" from other people for the greater good of the whole group. In other words not likely to happen with the kinds of people we're having this discussion with lol.

It must be nice to live in a fantasy. You keep talking about things that no one else even mentions.

I'm not Tippia (God bless her) and have no use for this endless circle jerk business, so i'll just put you kn the ignore list, but in parting let me say that your experience in game and probably out would be a lot better if you stop projecting insecurities and prejudices on other people (ie trying to put words they don't say in their mouths). These and other things are the reasons why your tepid attempt to challenge James 315 failed before they even got started, because rather than look inward for your faults, you blame your faults on everyone else.

Good luck.

That right there is the part of all of the rabble I think is correct. Maybe you meant it differently but I take that as stand up within game mechanics and fight back. THAT IS EVE. Fighting the other guy to have your corner of space and your piece of the pie.
You can have a complete sci-fi simulator without making EvE a carebearland. Sure it will be a dirty gritty scifi world but as far as I know that was the point of eve in the first place. Fight for your right to carebear. Play smart and plan your moves well don't go crying to CCP to make it safer.

Some of the so called casuals & carebears are the ones that are the most dedicated to making sure that other carebears realise that Eve is a world where surprise buttsekhs is a common occurrence. I'm classed as a carebear because of the way I mainly play the game, however I accept that others play this game in a different way and are free to interfere in the way I play and I wholeheartedly support that.

I'm primarily a miner/industrialist and mission runner, in contrast I also support hulkpermageddon & the efforts of the New Order to bring some excitement to the otherwise boring occupation of mining ice. Some may ask why I support the acts & play style of "belligerent undesirables"?, the answer is simple, I appreciate the efforts made by others to produce content.

Miners should be free to mine, but suicide gankers should also be free to kill them. In Eve there is a place for all kinds of gameplay however those styles of play must be able to interact and create conflict or Eve will go the way of many MMOs before it, into the dustbin of failed games.

Still better than your posts.

Lies! I will not abide such lies!

You may not can-bait in the starter systems. That's it. Feel free to blow them up for any other reason. I for one like to travel to Duripant and explode the noobs I find there to help stifle the prospective numbers of the Gallente militia. (I know, it's really meta.)

Also, I might add that lying about the rules, is against the rules, so you may want to actually know what you're talking about before you go spewing your carebear nonsense all over the forums.